BONUS: Can a Woman Ever Be Pope?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:39

Hello, and welcome to this bonus episode of a History recorded straight after our recently published episode. Who is Pope Leo xiv? I'm joined now by the guests from that episode, Kathleen Cummings and John Downey, to discuss this a little bit more.

Hello again to both of you.

Kathleen Cummings: 00:00:55

Hello.

John Doughney: 00:00:56

Hello.

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:57

Really great that you're able to stick around. And the main episode was really, really fascinating. So anyone listening to this, if you haven't yet heard that, go and listen.

But I just wanted to touch on a couple of things quickly that we didn't have time to cover. Kathleen, first of all, will there ever be a woman pope?

Kathleen Cummings: 00:01:15

Well, Liam, I'm a historian, so I'm not very good at projecting the future, but I can tell you that it seems very unlikely for a very long time, and here's why. The Catholic Church is a very hierarchical religion with the pope at the top, the cardinals below him, then the bishops, and then the priests.

And to start to climb that ladder, you have to be a priest.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:38

And.

Kathleen Cummings: 00:01:38

And the Catholic Church teaches that only men can be ordained as priests. There is a conversation that was really opened by Pope Francis about could women be deacons? Which is a step below priest. And that conversation has.

It continues, but there is tremendous resistance to that.

So seeing the resistance to women being ordained as deacons, it seems even farther afield that anytime soon Catholic women will be able to be ordained as priests, and then up you go. So I think it's highly unlikely anytime in our lifetimes.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:14

Yeah.

So if they did want to change the rulebook and, you know, make it crystal clear that a woman was eligible to be elected pope, how long does that process take?

Kathleen Cummings: 00:02:27

Well, it depends. I mean, the Catholic Church changes tremendously slowly. It measures change over centuries. But then it's odd.

It sometimes happens really quickly, overnight. So if there were, say, a pope who believed that the teaching should be changed, it could happen very quickly.

Pope Leo, everyone who's interested in this question has searched for signs about what he thinks about this, and he did express some resistance to the idea of women being ordained as deacons, again, which is a much easier theological change than allowing women to be priests. But I heard an interview with one of his theology teachers. He's actually the first pope to have been taught theology by a woman.

When he studied at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, he had female professors, and one of them said, you know, the grace of the office. We never know how a pope is going to change during his time in office.

So he may accelerate that conversation about women as deacons, and that could go in interesting places. But it's, but we just don't know.

Liam Heffernan: 00:03:30

Do you think that the, because the, the Pope is typically older than, I guess, the average, you know, person, does that mean that the Pope is always just a little bit old fashioned in their views and therefore the Church can never really be fully forward thinking?

Kathleen Cummings: 00:03:48

I don't think that's true. I think in sometimes, sometimes the opposite is true.

When you look at generations, particularly in the church right now, it's often priests of the younger generations that are more traditional. Pope Leo was formed in a time right after the Second Vatican Council when the Church did become more open and more inclusive.

And so I think he's still formed by that, whereas some of the younger people have a much more traditional view of hierarchy. So, no, I wouldn't say because he's on the older side, although he does look very young, I must say.

You too, John, you also look very young for your age.

So although he seems to be a very vigorous 70 year old, I think he also is of a generation that might be even more open to change than the generations that come after him.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:40

So, John, going back to childhood, how did Catholic school shape you as a person?

John Doughney: 00:04:49

d so when you think about the: 1950

And so you had growth, a lot of optimism, but very traditional values.

And so it's interesting when Kathleen was talking about, even though we were steeped in traditional values growing up, we also are willing and able to challenge those traditional values and look at something different. But I think the time, it was a time of stay at home moms, it was a time of community, it was a time of conformity. And that all shaped who we were.

And when you add on top of that, where the south side of Chicago was very diverse, you had European immigrants.

Most of the areas where I grew up started in the 19th century as farming communities that then turned later on in the century and early 20th century into industrial. And so Riverdale where I grew up, had a steel mill where I worked during my college summers. And it was right along the little Calumet River.

And so there was sugar beet factories and distilleries. So it became quite industrial, but very, very blue collar. And so there were blue collar values that we learned.

I grew up in a big family and that was not uncommon. Seven children in a three bedroom home. Very modest.

But we didn't know that Well, I wouldn't consider us poor, but we didn't also consider ourselves rich. We just considered ourselves happy. And because we came from New York, I started at St. Mary's as a first grader, moved from New York.

We had each other, and then we also had the parish community. And I think that's the other layer that really shaped every one of us as I connect with.

connect with people back from: 1969

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:31

Yeah, it's really interesting because I asked that as someone who, as I mentioned in the main episode, I consider myself an atheist now, but I did go to Catholic school, and I found that by the time I left Catholic school at 11, that I guess I wouldn't have called myself an atheist at 11 years old. But I certainly fundamentally no longer really believed in what I was being told at school.

And so to me, Catholic school really challenged any faith I might have had rather than reinforce it.

But I guess what always interests me about this is that I'm always of the opinion that being a good person or a bad person is almost completely unrelated to faith. And that's something that I think gets confused a lot when you look at the division and the prejudice that happens around the world today.

And actually, I think faith is as harsh as this might sound, I've got no better word for it. Almost like a vehicle to justify whatever value system you hold dear. And I would say that about anyone with whatever belief system they have. Right.

And because we're sat here having this conversation and we're both good people, just because we don't share the same faith, it doesn't make either of us any lesser or better than the other. Right.

John Doughney: 00:09:51

Well, we're seeing more and more, I believe, that people are operating under the cloak of Christianity, whether they are Baptists, Catholics. They're operating under that for the purpose of power and privilege and control.

And that's where I think when you see that intersection of faith and then the other part of it and the money and politics and control and a lack of acceptance, it causes you to step back and. And question. It causes you to step back and question organized religion.

You know, if this is what truly is, is it is about when the basis of it is serving your fellow man, loving your fellow man. And especially. And Pope Leo has had a real focus on the poor. And especially now when we're in.

In America, we're looking at federal employees now going without paychecks and federal employees standing in it. Really, you know, when you think about the poor, there's a lot of.

Lot of layers of that and how do we take care of each other, regardless of our religious affiliations or even our beliefs? And I think you're absolutely right. It's about what kind of a person are you? And do you serve your fellow man?

Do you seek justice for your fellow man? Or do you try to manipulate and control your fellow man?

Liam Heffernan: 00:11:40

I think that's really what stood out to me in this whole conversation and on the main podcast as well, is that actually Robert was and showed these sort of signs of extraordinary very early in his life. And actually he seemed to care very much and be just a very caring human being.

And he found himself on the path that ultimately took him to the papacy.

But had he not gone to Catholic school, had he not found religion, I guess I firmly believe that he still would have been that person and he would have found another way of. Of manifesting that into something equally as extraordinary.

John Doughney: 00:12:23

He just wouldn't have been Pope.

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:25

Yeah, exactly.

John Doughney: 00:12:26

He just wouldn't have been Pope. I believe that there was a goodness in him, and again, so many different influences that shaped who he was. But it's like the raw material.

You got to start with the raw material before you come out with a product. And in him was goodness and kindness.

signs of that way back in the: 1960

Well, that was, again, every little Catholic boy's dream. But for that to become a reality is quite amazing.

Liam Heffernan: 00:13:20

Yeah, of course. And, you know, I think that's. It's a really positive note to end on.

And I think as you know, touched on the sort of the politics of today, especially in America. I think it's something that a lot of people in America maybe need to consider a little bit more. Not to mention any names, but maybe.

Maybe some senior politicians in America. Just saying. But anyway, I think we should wrap up there. Thank you, John, and also Kathleen, for joining me.

It's been an absolute pleasure to have you both on. To anyone listening, if you haven't already, listen to the full episode right now. It's on the feed.

Just a couple below this and the links to everything we've discussed. Are in the show notes. And as always, if you really like what you hear, you can support the show.

And all the details for that are in the show notes as well. So thank you again, Kathleen and John, thank you all for listening and goodbye.