BONUS: Cultural Appropriation or Recognition?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:39

Hello, and welcome to this bonus episode of A History Recorded straight after our recently published episode, who is Pocahontas? I'm joined now by the guest from that episode, Camilla Townsend, to discuss this a little bit more. Camilla, thank you for hanging on.

Camilla Townsend: 00:00:54

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:56

Yeah. And thank you so much for your time on the main episode. It was a really, really great discussion.

There's a couple of things we didn't quite get time to cover, which I'd like to just ask you now.

You know, we mentioned about the pros and cons of the Disney film, and, you know, how, you know, maybe they don't get credit in certain ways that they. They deserve. But thinking about kind of popular Western representations of Native Americans, is it too whitewashed? And what problems does that cause?

Camilla Townsend: 00:01:27

You mean the movie particularly? Not just the general image of Pocahontas.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:31

I guess that the movie in particular. But.

But also, you know, that when you look at kind of how American culture has appropriated, you know, Native American history, I mean, you look at, for instance, that there's the football team, the. That used to be called the Washington Redskins, which obviously not. Okay.

And then, you know, you've got the Disney movie, and you've got all these other ways that I think Native American culture has been really appropriated and whitewashed to help us almost forget the brutality of that relationship.

Camilla Townsend: 00:02:00

Yes, it's a very complicated question.

You know, there's a great museum that's part of the Smithsonian, the National Museum of the American Indian, and it is in the hands of Native Americans. That is, they control it, they staff it, they run it. It's their space.

And they have had, for quite some years now an exhibit that they really like and that they find visitors really like that consists of room after room of all these stereotypical images of Indians. You know, advertisements, team mascots, labels on food jars.

We have our favorite butter in this country is Land of Lakes butter with this beautiful Indian maiden on the front, that sort of thing. And the point of the exhibit, it includes a great deal.

Large numbers of images of Pocahontas, by the way, because she's part of American pop culture everywhere you look. And the point of the exhibit is that it cuts both ways.

That is, these stereotypes have done a great deal of damage to Native American peoples by making them seem less real and. And far simpler than any people really are. But on the other hand, it has at least given them a central place in American consciousness.

So their point is, it's not all bad. Would it be better to have received equal treatment from the colonial era.

Well, obviously nobody would want to be in the situation in which Native Americans have been put.

But given the erasures and the violence and the horrors that they've experienced, they're saying in partly part of the message of the exhibit is at least we remain central to the consciousness of the country. It's better to be a symbol of the country than to not appear at all. To be literally so made to disappear that you don't even appear as a symbol.

So there's no right answer to that question.

And in fact, if you ask a room full of Native American guys, sports enthusiasts, whether they do or don't like having teams named things like the Braves or the Redskins, you'll get very different answers. I, I think at this point the larger consensus view is that it's not a good thing, that we should not go for simplicity and whitewashing. Right.

That the symbolism may have a certain power, but that it perhaps does more harm than good. I think it's fair to say that that's now more the majority view, but it remains a complicated question.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:18

Yeah, And I think there's definitely we're in an era now where I think we are taking some sort of public accountability for that sort of whitewashing and general historical treatment of Native Americans. I think we're still a long, long, long way away from repaying that damage.

But I think we're on that path at least where it feels like things are getting better.

Camilla Townsend: 00:04:42

Exactly.

As long as we're on that path, we must address seriously the kind of dual nature and the dangers implicit in having so many symbols about a people about who. Whom very little is known. I mean, to this day, if you ask typical children, do they know the names of any real historical Native American figures?

They're hard pressed and they sometimes come up with Pocahontas, but they're not sure if she was real. A few of them can come up with Sitting Bull, but beyond that, relatively few can go even now. So I think yes, you're right.

And as an historian, I'm certainly more interested in conveying the realities that people have experienced than celebrating sort cute symbols.

Liam Heffernan: 00:05:30

Yeah.

And so if anyone did listen to the main episode and is listening to this and wants to learn more about Pocahontas, I mean, of course there's your wonderful book, but what other resources could you recommend for people?

Camilla Townsend: 00:05:45

Right. Well, some of the descendant communities are still there as state recognized tribe.

And so in fact, if anybody ever visits Jamestown, for example, in you should go sort of 20 miles further and visit the Pamunkey Indian Reservation. They have a museum. It's fascinating if you're talking about what you can read.

There is an anthropologist named Helen Rountree whose work is really excellent, and a historian named Karen Cooperman. It looks like Karen Kupperman pronounced Karen Cooperman. And her work is also really excellent.

I think she has a book called Pocahontas and the English Boys that people would really enjoy about, about some of the English boys who were taken and left to live among the Indians so they could learn their language, just as Pocahontas was kidnapped and then married into the English. So there are other books.

I would say that mine, Pocahontas and the Poet and Dilemma, is the only one, the only book that is specifically about her whole life, that is based on true research and not hearsay feelings, thoughts, et cetera. And it was written to be read that it's a readable book.

So I guess I'll be a bit of a homer here and recommend mine first, but I really do think that people would also get a great deal out of Helen Rowntree's work or Karen Cooperman's work.

Liam Heffernan: 00:07:04

Yeah, that's great. Thank you. And all the links to those will be in the show notes for anyone listening.

Jamila, again, thank you so much for joining me for the podcast and for the main episode as well. It's really appreciated.

Camilla Townsend: 00:07:15

It's delightful. I'm so glad you're doing this.

Liam Heffernan: 00:07:18

Yeah, thank you. And for anyone listening, that about wraps this up.

And if you haven't already, please do rate and review the podcast, follow us as well, and support the show if you feel inclined. All the information is in the show notes. Thank you as always for listening and goodbye.