How Has Ru Paul's Drag Race Changed America?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:17

This week we are celebrating one of the most influential TV shows in history. With better outfits than Downton Abbey, sharper dialogue than an Aaron Sorkin screenplay, and better lip syncing than the X Factor.

This show has become a worldwide sensation, spawning 26 international versions across 17 countries and launching the careers of many household names. But it's also a divisive show, one that draws as much criticism as it does praise. So how has it lasted nearly two decades? What makes it so watchable?

And how exactly has RuPaul's Drag Race changed America? Welcome to America, A history podcast.

I'm Niamh Heffernan and every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places and the events that make the USA what it is today.

To discuss this I am joined by the Emmy winning co creators of World of Wonder, the media company behind the RuPaul's Drag Race franchise and also the streaming service wow Presents plus which is available in 190 territories globally.

They've been honoured for their trailblazing work with the IDA Pioneer Award, realscreen's Global 100 list, Variety's Reality Leaders list and Variety's Reality TV Impact Report, as well as the Out 100 and Far Too many other accolades to name right now. They are genuine pioneers in the entertainment industry. And, and it's a real honor to welcome to the show Randy Barbato and Fenton Bailey.

Welcome guys.

Randy Barbato: 00:02:07

Hi, thanks for having us.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:10

It's a real pleasure. And Randy, do you know what I didn't check before we started recording, did I pronounce your surname correctly?

Randy Barbato: 00:02:16

You could say Barbado. Barbado. I'll answer to both.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:20

Wonderful. I feel like the accent gives me a bit of a pass on however I do that, so I'll take it.

So firstly, before we get into the real deep stuff, I'd love you to take me all the way back to season one and give us a bit of the origin story of Drag Race and how you managed to bring it to our screens in the first place.

Randy Barbato: 00:02:40

I would say that the origin story starts well before season one and with RuPaul himself, who Fenton and I have worked with for decades, since last year, Century. And you know, because Ru really is the sort of engine of RuPaul's Drag Race.

And prior to Drag Race we did 100 episodes of the RuPaul talk show where and Michel Vasaz was actually his co host and ever since then there's been talk about some kind of a television show and, and we played around with lots of different iterations. And it was really Tom Campbell, who is the creative engine, in many ways, of Drag Race, who kept pushing for, like, what would it be?

And his initial pitch was an elimination competition show, which Ru said, I don't want to do that. Let's brainstorm other things. And I.

After coming up with some other versions and pitching them, Rue was like, we should do the competition elimination show.

Fenton Bailey: 00:03:55

I mean, it's true. Like Randy says, like, we definitely reject the idea of being co creators. We're very, like, excited and honored to be a part of it.

But it is definitely something created by a community of people. And it just resonated with our Wheaton on Roof too long. Actually, we've known him longer than he's been alive because he's so young.

And we're not particularly young, but we do go way, way back, like last century. And we were just. When Randy and I were at film school, we were like, fans of this emerging drag scene in the East Village, which was kind of.

Drag has always been around for centuries, right?

But this was a different kind of strain, I guess, and it was sort of more punk and more anarchic and more kind of like, drawing on all these different elements from sort of TV and commercials and pop culture. And we were just fans of that. And we would go to the Pyramid Club, and there would always be queens dancing or performing on this tiny stage.

So, I mean, it just goes back a long time.

Randy Barbato: 00:05:07

I would just add to that this morning. I was thinking about this conversation and thinking about the genesis. And again, going back to our beginning to work with Rue.

You know, his first big hit was Supermodel. And there was a moment where we needed a music video, and the record label said, oh, here's $10. Like, make the music video.

And we interviewed all these directors to make this music video, and Ru was like, let's just do it ourselves. You guys direct it. Let's just. Let's just make it. Like, let's do Mahogany. Let's do Mahogany.

And that spirit, that fiercely independent spirit of, like, let's put on a show, let's do it ourselves. You know, 30 years later, 18 seasons of drag Race later, it's the same thing. It's the heart and soul of what Drag Race is.

Fenton Bailey: 00:06:04

And we'll let you ask another question in a second. It is kind of like what drag is.

It is very much making something out of nothing or being creative in adverse circumstances when you have no resources pulling something together. It's about creating magic when you may be feeling you're in a Wasteland with nothing.

But you pull something out of a hat out of your ass, you know, it is the art of making something out of nothing.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:36

Well, I think that's why it was so striking to watch that first season of Drag Race, because, you know, when you.

When you consider the landscape at the time of, you know, these big talent and reality shows, that felt quite contrived even back then, let alone rewatching today, there was something about Drag Race that. That really did bring those elements to the screen.

And that sense of community, as you mentioned before, where everyone was kind of cheering each other on. It wasn't this sort of dog eat dog, you know, everyone out for themselves competition.

So I wonder, you know, not just because of how tonally different the show was, but also because it was a bunch of drag queens on the screen, which was a very different concept for its time. What was the public reaction to that?

Fenton Bailey: 00:07:22

Well, you know, this isn't really direct answer to your question, but I think it connected with the audience because it wasn't, as you say, just a reality show. It was almost a parody of a reality show.

It was like, again, it's this idea of drag taking bits and pieces from all over the place and sort of collaging them into something new. It's also the idea of doing it all with a wink. You know, it's a reality show, but it's sort of a spoof reality show, right?

I mean, yes, it's a competition and everyone takes it seriously. And in the workroom, there's an incredible sense of community and camaraderie.

And again, that is quintessentially, I think, what the power of drag as an art form and as a medium, and one of the reasons why it is so relevant and resonant and important today.

Randy Barbato: 00:08:20

It's a reality show in drag. And I do think because of that, we and the contestants have permission to sort of reinvent them and itself regularly.

And then also, I think it's a community that, you know, while drag has been on television in different iterations forever, I do think seeing a group of queens and seeing A, their artistry, but also B, their humanity was a new experience.

Fenton Bailey: 00:08:56

Yeah, because drag on TV was like drag queen number one in a true crime drama. Right.

Who would end up dead or something or provide the sort of naughty moment in a show where it's like, you know, it was always a sudden doom, faded sense that these characters were faded and that the outcome was not going to be happy for them. There was nothing really that took drag and queens at Face value as a.

As a tribe that exists and deserves to exist and isn't living in some sort of limbo state of, you know, Jeopardy. You know, it's been terribly misrepresented and marginalized to the extent has been on TV before, I would say.

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:43

Yeah.

Well, I think one of the things that I think deserves so much credit, one of the reasons why Drag Race deserves so much credit is because not just drag queens, but so many sort of marginalized groups, you know, when you look at what was on TV 20 years ago, they were just. They were othered. They were. They were the supporting roles, they were the expendable characters.

You really pivoted that and made drag queens the leading ladies of their own show. And I mean, that must have been very groundbreaking for its time.

Fenton Bailey: 00:10:15

Well, I think the more important thing is that, you know, I think Randy and I have always believed that drag belong. You know, it's like peanut butter and jelly.

Drag and TV go together perfectly because it's the small screen, and queens on the small screen can make a big impact. And that's always what TV has been in pursuit of.

Like, how do you compensate for the fact it's not a giant screen, it's not the movies, how do you grab people's attention? And I mean, again, that's like the very definition of drag.

And I think the other thing about it is, and this kind of goes back to a question you were asking earlier, which is, you know, how did the audience react?

The audience reacted in the best possible way in the sense that word of mouth is what gave the show its Life and its second season and its third season.

use when Drag Race debuted in: 2009

But thanks to people who did watch it and word of mouth, in spite of the tiny budget of that first season, it just took off. And we, you know, the best possible thing when you're doing a series is to. Is to get a second season, you know?

Liam Heffernan: 00:11:37

Yeah. I gotta say, when binging Drag Race as I. As I did, because my. My wife sort of insisted that I watch it because I love tv.

Yeah, she was absolutely right. I mean, we went through about 12 seasons in like a month, and then I had to have a little bit of a break.

But kind of watching them back to back, the end of season one versus the start of season two, you can see it's like, suddenly, like, the commissioners were like, okay, like, we. We need to give this show more money now. Like, it's like, you proved the concept of the show, right?

Randy Barbato: 00:12:12

Well, they didn't give us much more money. I will tell you that. That did not happen. I just think we got smarter about how to. How to produce it, and we invested more money.

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:24

Yeah, fair enough. I mean, you. When we're talking about just, like, making the show, I think one of the challenges that you would.

I'm going to assume you had, like any reality show has, is finding that balance between making it something that's entertaining, that. That people do watch and talk about, you know, to get it recommissioned, but.

But also balancing that against the sort of not wanting to exploit the contestants, you know, making sure that they're treated fairly and appropriately.

I think with, you know, when certainly dealing with drag queens as well, who might face a lot of hostility from certain parts of the viewership, that was probably even more important to get right, wasn't it?

Fenton Bailey: 00:13:07

I think so. But I think in the very framing, the very DNA of the show is about a. Inclusion and baby, about giving these artists a platform to do their thing.

So I don't think it was particularly exploitative. And also, it was really a showcase, a shop window for this incredible artistry, creativity, and talent, you know, and, you know, yeah, sure.

I mean, everybody. You can't find a single show in the world that everybody likes. You know, there's always going to be a credit.

Randy Barbato: 00:13:45

I think it's always been important to us. But I also think the landscape has changed so dramatically from when Drag Race premiered to now, and we've evolved with that.

I mean, even the relationship between social media and television was so different back then. We had a small show with a very small audience, and social media didn't play the kind of role it now plays. It's like it was very symbiotic.

And so we evolved in terms of what we call queen care and support, and we learned that as we watched.

Liam Heffernan: 00:14:29

That landscape evolve and as the show grew and the audiences grew and you started to find more mainstream audiences that maybe weren't quite as rooted within the LGBTQ community. Did you find that created any additional challenges in what you were making and how you were making it?

Fenton Bailey: 00:14:52

No. The show was never. I think we believe that drag is a universal medium, or rather, drag is a medium that can be appreciated universally by anyone.

And so who's watching it doesn't control the way the show is made or what's in the show. You Know, it's. I think part of the show's success is that it, from the beginning, was a very authentic, genuine voice.

It represented what I think is a huge reservoir of creativity and artistry. But you could say it represented a small part of a community that hadn't really been fully represented before.

And that because it didn't make any concessions to trying to be mainstream and because it was very specific and authentic to itself, I think that actually is what audiences watching television kind of want everywhere. You know, I often think about Squid Game. You know, Squid Game wasn't made for a global audience. It was made for. It was a local show for Korea.

That, to everybody's surprise, perhaps Netflix is most of all, became this global sensation.

And it became that not because it was created in a laboratory to appeal to the most number of people and be the most returnable and be all these things. It just was completely authentic in and of itself.

Randy Barbato: 00:16:22

I would just add to that. Like, I go back to what Fenton said earlier on about how this is a show that's been.

That is produced by a community of people, many of whom have been with the show since the beginning, including our showrunner. And the goal of every season since the first one was to make us laugh and to make us cry and to listen to the queens, and it's never changed.

So even though there's been more feedback, there's been more engagement, it's still at the heart. The same thing motivates us and drives us. Like, we want to be entertained and moved.

And, you know, I think that's what's kept the show relevant and, you know, kept the audience coming back.

Liam Heffernan: 00:17:20

Yeah.

And I think that authenticity and that realness about the show is incredibly admirable, and I think it's one of the real sort of superpowers of Drag Race.

But I think it can also become, like, unintentionally antagonistic when you consider the sort of landscape, the wider cultural landscape in America and some of the conversations and sort of the national dialogues that are happening around equal rights, particularly more recently. You know, there's some real issues around trans equality, not to mention there's never been any real total equality for LGBTQ communities.

And I just wonder if you kind of unintentionally find yourselves with a responsibility to represent a community that is always at the front of national conversations for whatever reason.

Fenton Bailey: 00:18:22

Well, I think we do represent a community. We're part of a community. And no community is homogenous. Every community is made up of individuals. And I think you're completely Right.

I mean, we're under no illusions that this moment is a serious threat. I mean, it's very clear that the last days of the recent presidential campaign trans.

Was put front and center in an effort, perhaps seen, and successfully so, to carry the election for Trump and the Republicans. So let's be real about. We absolutely know we. Where we're at, but I think it's important also not to.

To stand together as a community and not to find fault with each other, because I think that the danger of doing that is that you ignore the real threat, the real danger by, you know, turning on each other. And so I think that, you know, it has been said that, you know, I mean, another sort of key thing of that campaign, that.

That campaign was, you know, the woke mindset. Well, you know, what is woke like? Is there anything wrong with woke?

I mean, I think Pope Leo XIV just put it so brilliantly when he said that to be woke. Where did he say, Yeah? I mean, it just moved me so much. To be called woke in a world that sleeps through suffering is not an insult.

And similarly, we've been called by the right, snowflakes.

Again, I don't think that's an insult, because I think what makes a snowflake a snowflake is that every snowflake is unique and different and deserves respect and should be recognized and honored. And I think that that's all that drag race and all that we've ever believed as queer people ourselves, that, you know, it's about.

It is about diversity. It is about inclusion.

And what's happening now is just the latest iteration in a mindset that would refuse to die, which determines, Is determined to exclude, to demonize people, to build walls. And I honestly don't see how you can look to drag race and blame it for that. I don't think us being visible is in any way reprehensible.

We all deserve to be seen. I mean, that's all it comes down to.

Randy Barbato: 00:20:59

I would just add to that. I mean, and it's obvious we are unwavering in our commitment to create and continue to create a platform for a marginalized community and.

And for artists and their artistry. And that's our contribution to. And it always has been, and it will continue to be to. You know, I don't want to call it the resistance, but I will.

I mean, because we. We don't. We don't. We are not a political show. We are a show about being present. Like, it's our presence and it's our community's presence.

That we feel is important and making a show where everyone can connect to these artists on a human level.

Liam Heffernan: 00:21:59

Yeah.

And I think actually the way that you allow that time within the show to give every queen their chance to tell you who they are and where they came from and the struggles that they had, and I mean, it's. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can listen to some of their stories.

The abandonment that they faced and the hostility they faced just in coming out and in being open drag queens. I think.

I mean, I know I'm talking to the creators of the show, so I know you agree, but it's just, I don't know how anyone can watch Drag Race and not really connect with those stories.

But I wonder if, you know, you think that Drag Race has really helped to normalize conversations that were maybe previously taboo around sexual identity, gender identity, and other issues.

Fenton Bailey: 00:22:56

Yeah, I mean, it's such a weird word to say normalize in a world in which it seems at the moment, you know, we're being abnormalized once again, you know, so.

But I think it does come down to this fundamental idea of visibility, and we are all in this, we're all living in this sort of stew of screens and social media, and I think everybody deserves to be seen and heard.

So, you know, there is a fundamental conflict, I suppose, between those people who do not believe in diversity, do not believe in the trans community, who do not believe in immigration and foreigners, and people other than you. That's on the one side, I think, the wrong side.

And then on the other side, a community that believes in welcoming everyone, accepting everyone, and letting them express themselves and encouraging them to express themselves. It's such a fundamental divide. Right.

Randy Barbato: 00:24:02

Yeah. And what we have now are bullies who are trying to use fear to erase who we are.

And the way to counterbalance that is to not be erased is to not go away and to keep doing, you know, in our case, just to keep doing what we, what we do and try and do it better and better. Because when we do it well, people connect.

And so even though we're not setting out to kind of change people, we're just setting out to make great television and to introduce people to artists who turn us on.

Liam Heffernan: 00:24:51

Yeah, And I, I love that, but I, I, I just, I wonder if, like, when we look at, like, today's world, when you see, like, all the, you know, the, the, the billionaires and the Silicon Valley bosses and the, the, the huge, you know, media company owners are kind of bending over backwards to pander to the, to to the Trump administration, you know, does that create some real challenges for shows like yours to continue when, you know, there's that shift that, you know, towards the right.

Fenton Bailey: 00:25:23

There is a shift towards the right, but let's not, let's, like, let's not delude ourselves. You know, this was a very close election, so half the country voted one way, half the country voted the other way. So.

And that doesn't change the audience, doesn't change just because bullies, billionaires and bigots are notionally in charge. The fundamental underlying reality that this country is filled with decent, open minded, curious, engaged people remains true.

And it's just an unfortunate moment, you know, of. It's a folly.

saying the other day was like: 1700

So that should tell you, by its nature, what they're trying to do is insane and also fundamentally will not work. People have tried it before and there's been enormous suffering as a result of it, but it has never worked.

And, you know, I believe what Reheni says, the key is just not to be erased and to remain visible.

And, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, one billionaire in particular who headed up Doge, has also, among his many children, has a trans daughter. He rejected that child, denounced that child, in fact, said that child was dead to him.

The classic, awful, unimaginable thing that a parent would say to their own child. But, but she is an amazing. She's an icon and she is not being silent and she is remaining visible.

In fact, she was just at the launch party for Drag Race All Stars and just created this iconic viral moment. And I think that is so important. It's not necessarily the speeches, it's just being present, being visible. Kind of like saying, not so fast.

You may be the richest man in the world, you may be bigoted, you may be doing all sorts of criminal acts, but we are not here to roll over. We're not here to be erased and silenced.

Liam Heffernan: 00:27:55

And actually just thinking about, you know, drag Race as an institution and what it's grown into. I mean, 26 different versions around the world, you know, including, you know, you've got all star versions, you've got, like these global versions.

Now is, I love Drag Race and, and I watched the UK version, I watched the US version. But how many versions is too many versions? Like, is that. Where's the ceiling for this?

Fenton Bailey: 00:28:21

Well, you know, how many versions of Traders is too many versions? How many versions of Big Brother is too many? How many versions of, you know, America's Got Talent or Pop Idol?

I mean, I don't know, but every community around the world has drag in one form or another. So, you know, and also, by the way, I think a lot of what America's going through right now illustrates the fact that America is not. It may have had.

It may have been the leader in all sorts of ways, but it is not the only country by any means. Right. And my point is it's a global audience. It's a. It's a global community. Right.

Randy Barbato: 00:29:01

And I also think Drag Race, like, beyond the wigs and the heels and the makeup, I do think there is. It holds up a mirror to a community, the culture, the country that it's in.

So, like, I think all the different iterations of Drag Race around the world are unique and they provide a kind of public service to that country that is unlike other television shows. And so where's the ceiling? I don't know. Mars? Outer Space.

Fenton Bailey: 00:29:45

You know, I tell you what, we don't.

Randy Barbato: 00:29:47

Ultimate drag queens. Aliens.

Fenton Bailey: 00:29:51

Drag Race.

Randy Barbato: 00:29:53

Uranus.

Fenton Bailey: 00:29:54

There you go. I wasn't gonna say it.

Liam Heffernan: 00:29:56

You know, Jersey teed it up.

, we're recording this in May: 2025

Not where drag queens have passed away, but there have been very high profile cases of drag queens who have struggled a lot with their mental health and with the challenges of fame that Drag Race has brought.

And it really makes me wonder if, you know, despite all of the success of Drag Race and of the queens that have come through it, if there is still this systemic issue of acceptance that makes it really, really challenging for queens to succeed in the mainstream.

Fenton Bailey: 00:30:59

I mean, I think there are many questions in that one single question.

I think for all of us, a society with social media where we're all kind of interacting all the time with some kind of screen is, you know, I call it the screen age. And I think that is a challenge for everyone to navigate, negotiate, and come to terms with.

I think the other question in your question is how does the generational Abuse of queer people, trans people and drag artists, you know, place additional pressure on those who are suddenly very visible. And there's no question there is some impact. And it affects everybody in different ways.

In much the same way that every influencer is impacted in a different way by the sudden attention of people upon them. It's a different, you know, it's a new, it's kind of a new human experience. Right.

You know, and that's why the well being of the queens is really our number one concern.

And we spend an enormous amount of time during casting, before the show starts, while the show goes on and after the show, and for as long as they feel they need it, we are there for them. So we're all learning this together. Right?

Liam Heffernan: 00:32:24

It's stuff. And you're right, I think there's.

You could look at it in isolation, but you could also see that the bigger picture there that, you know, I guess when you consider Drag Race now versus Drag Race in, you know, the mid noughties, you know, social media just wasn't really a thing. And all of these ways that celebrities have of engaging with fans and being seen by consumers just didn't really exist.

And that must, you know, I guess that creates enormous opportunities for queens.

Fenton Bailey: 00:32:54

Well, but yes, it is enormous opportunity. And that's really the show's mission is to provide this platform and what they choose to do with that afterwards is very much up to them.

You know, I mean, Randy always tells you the team also before the show starts, always tells them you are a winner just by being on the show. You know, winning the competition, sure, that'd be great. But it doesn't mean you're a loser if you, you know, get kicked off the competition.

It's like, and, and we've seen like everybody handles it in a different way, but the idea is fundamentally it's a platform. And this was one of the reasons we created wow Presents plus was for queens who wanted to work with us, continue to work with us.

We would work with them and do shows and ideas and original shows and things that they wanted to do because we felt there was definitely an audience for, you know, to continue being a part of this incredible creativity and artistry. So. But we don't oblige anybody to do that.

Randy Barbato: 00:34:01

You know, the thing is that fame is a tricky proposition and it's a challenge for anyone who dives into the fame pool and you to balance the opportunity with all of those challenges is we remind people endlessly and it's a choice to make, you know, before you Even try and step in front of the spotlight. And it absolutely is more challenging now than when Drag Race first started. And also, though the potential benefits are much greater than they were.

And when you think about so many of these queens who are hugely talented and.

And really are struggling to survive, we'd like to think that giving them the exposure and helping them potentially have a better life and earn more money, substantial living, is worth it.

Fenton Bailey: 00:35:16

And also, funnily enough, I mean, just thought of this, really, but also in the.

So, you know, thinking back to the sort of East Village days, and Rue, actually, Rue was such a pioneer in the sense that he didn't just perform, he created posters, he made films, he made books, he put out fanzines, and he would go round and do the wheat pasting himself.

You know, I think drag artists have actually often been really ahead of the curve in terms of knowing that it is on them to find an audience, to curate that audience, to have a relationship with that audience. And so you point out some of the downsides, but also some of the upsides is many of the queens are just. It's like ducks to water.

They know this environment actually better than, say, some other people on other reality shows.

Randy Barbato: 00:36:19

Just to add to that look, you just need to look at RuPaul's Instagram. Like, you know, while we're here on set shooting the show, he'll whip out a phone and shoot an Instagram. It's like.

It's the mindset of survivors who will produce content, who are built for the age we're living in. Many of them, not all of them, but many of them. And that is at the heart of everything he does we do.

It's, again, goes back to the very beginning of the conversation of this fierce, independent spirit that is the foundation of RuPaul's Drag Race and is the lifeblood of so many drag artists.

Liam Heffernan: 00:37:08

And I have to say, you know, as a straight man who did not have any exposure to the drag scene until I watched Drag Race, it blew my mind. When you actually see what goes into it, I mean, you know, drag queens, I mean, yeah, they're performers, but they're.

They're fashion designers, they're salespeople, they're entertainers, they're social media managers. You know, they. They are incredible, incredible people. And it's like, it's.

It's very humbling to watch when you just see how much they struggle considering just how talented they are.

Fenton Bailey: 00:37:45

You know, you asked the question a little bit earlier, and this sort of. Sort of relates to that Point, you know, being a straight man and thanks to your wife turning you on to Drag Race.

But, you know, we have this show in Vegas, Drag Race Live, and I always think, like, when asked about, well, how many versions of Drag Race is enough or too many, and, you know, what is the limit? But the thing about Vegas is, if you can make it in Vegas, you can really make it anywhere. Because the Vegas audience is not a niche audience.

It is not only every kind of American. It is also people from all over the world.

And the fact that the show's been up, like, now in its thousandth show, I think there's many, many people who go to the show, maybe dragged along by their wives who are like, oh, my God, I had no idea. And yet we'll still think, oh, but drag, it's like, you know, is it niche? Is it marginal? Is it lgbtq? Yes. But also, look around. You're in Vegas.

What is Vegas other than a city as a drag queen? You know, you got a Bellagio, you got the Eiffel Tower. The whole thing is. And this is my.

You know, the American experience is fundamentally a drag experience. And this idea that drag is so marginal, I'm not sure I buy it.

I think it's fundamentally at the core of what America is, which perhaps explains why the right wing are so opposed to it and so freaked out about it, because, you know, because they'll be.

Randy Barbato: 00:39:20

Busted for wearing panties under their suits.

Fenton Bailey: 00:39:23

As we know they so often are. Right. You know, whenever it's like some kind of sex scandal. You could. You bet your wife, look at the Republican. It's a Republican.

You know, I mean, the hypocrisy is so rank, and, you know, it's tragic. That hypocrisy is fundamentally tragic because people cannot. Are just too ashamed to be who they are.

And, you know, Drag Race is all about giving the finger to that and just being who you are and who you want to be, who you imagine yourself to be.

Liam Heffernan: 00:39:51

Yeah. And I love that, and I love. Just some of those.

Some of those moments where that really shines through on Drag Race are some of the most memorable and poignant moments in the show. And I think I love the show for that and for so many other reasons, but I guess just to sort of bring this to some sort of close.

If Drag Race was to end tomorrow, what do you think its legacy would be?

Fenton Bailey: 00:40:17

Well, can I just say, Drag Race is not going to end tomorrow, you know? Yeah.

Liam Heffernan: 00:40:27

Yeah, fair enough.

Randy Barbato: 00:40:28

I kind of agree. I can't even imagine a world without Drag Race. A world without Drag Race is just a darker world.

A world without Drag Race is like pizza without cheese. A world without Drag Race. There is. We would all be lost. So, you know, just impossible to even think about.

Liam Heffernan: 00:40:51

Yeah. Well, I, for one, certainly hope it doesn't end anytime soon.

And, you know, thank you both for all of the amazing work and, you know, bringing the show to screens and just making it what it is. I think it's become. It's transcended just being a TV show and I think it's become so much more than that and so important to a lot of people.

So, um, you know, I think you just, you do just such incredible work and I'm just very pleased. That is very.

Fenton Bailey: 00:41:19

I mean, I don't want to cut you off, but very kind of you to say. But really, Rennie and I just lucky to be able to speak to you. But we behind us or alongside us, you know, Darren, Tom, like, it is a.

The extraordinary thing about World of Wonder, actually, it's really a family and that.

Randy Barbato: 00:41:37

So many Mandy, that, like, incredible, brilliant minds, we.

Fenton Bailey: 00:41:41

And we've worked together for, like. I mean, it's unusual, I guess, in TV.

We've literally worked together for like, 20 plus years, you know, and Ru, like, there's a friendship and a relationship and a partnership that goes back. It's almost indecent to say. Right, because Roo is 21, but we, you know, we worked together for. Since the 80s and it's been a joy, really.

I mean, we're so lucky.

Liam Heffernan: 00:42:14

Well, long, mate, continue. And I wish we could talk more, but we're going to wrap up this conversation here. And Randy Fenton, thank you so much for joining me.

For anyone listening, if you want to find out more about anything we've discussed, I'll leave links to everything that we mentioned in the show notes. So go and check that those out. If anyone wants to connect with either of you or check out your work. Where can they do that?

Fenton Bailey: 00:42:41

Well, there's wowpresenceplus.com that's the first thing you should do because it's like 5.99amonth. Like, it's like practically free. It's one of the cheapest subscribing subscription networks.

And it's really good because in addition to every version of Drag Race, which would be good for you, Liam, I think there is also, like a huge and increasing number of originals and even some scripted drama too, as well. So do that. And then I'm on Instagram. Fenton J. Bailey, I think. Yeah, yeah.

Randy Barbato: 00:43:13

Where Are you his social media? I guess I'm on Instagram. But more importantly, love to Liam's wife. Right, Fenton?

Fenton Bailey: 00:43:21

Yes. Yes.

Randy Barbato: 00:43:23

And next, next time we talk, she needs to be a part of it.

Fenton Bailey: 00:43:26

We want to give her her flowers. Yes.

Liam Heffernan: 00:43:29

Oh, she will. She will absolutely love that you've said that, I'm sure. And yeah, I will pass on the praise. Thank you so much, guys.

And for anyone who cares to connect with me, you can find me on bluesky and LinkedIn. Just search for my name. But if you enjoyed this podcast, do leave us a rating and a review.

Wherever you're listening to this, give us a follow so that all future episodes appear in your feed. And there's also links in the show notes if you you did want to support the show. So just go and check all of that out.

I'm going to hang on with Randy and Fenton to do a very quick bonus episode, which again, if you're a Patreon supporter, you will get access to very early. But otherwise, thank you so much for listening and goodbye. Sa.