What is Disney's America... and Why Didn't It Happen?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:01

Last week, I asked if Disneyland was in fact, the happiest place on Earth. Well, this week we're looking at the Disney theme park that never was.

The concept for a historical theme park from the Mouse House was initially earmarked for Virginia, but less than a year after being announced, it was cancelled. But why? So this week I want to know, what was Disney's America and why didn't it happen? Welcome to America, a history podcast.

I'm Liam Heffernan, and every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places and the events that make the USA what it is today.

To discuss this, I am joined by an assistant teaching professor, cultural historian and author at the University of Colorado Boulder with an interest in the relationship between culture, money, power and identity in the United States and globally. His piece on the conversation about the collapse of Disney's America is a fascinating read and we'll link to it in the show notes.

A big, big hello to Jared Beheerbrush.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:01:22

I appreciate the time. Thank you.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:24

Yeah, thanks for joining us, Jarrod. And we also welcome back last week's guest, a research associate at the University of Kassel with a focus on theme parks.

Her books include a cultural history of the Disneyland theme parks, middle class kingdoms, and she also wrote a paper specifically on Disney's America. Welcome back, Sabrina Mittermeier.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:01:44

Well, thanks for letting me crash the party.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:48

No, of course. I think this is an interesting one.

We've talked about Disney a couple of times before on the podcast, but this is one of those, I guess, more public and spectacular fails on Disney's part. So let's get into it.

Jared, I wonder if, first of all, you can just give us a little bit more context around all of this and kind of outline what the American pop culture landscape looked like in the early 90s.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:02:14

s and: 1984

And I'm sure we'll touch upon Frank Wells and Katzenberger later, but kind of into a new direction, but using the past to guide that new direction and getting back to leveraging the brand on animation. And you have the Disney renaissance. Eisner also had very ambitious plans in regards to the theme park business.

And so it very much fit within this capitalist landscape, as Disney always has, as they look toward kind of what's next. There were a number of theme park projects Euro Disney, they're discussing new gates in California.

d that trip took place around: 1990

y had actually met earlier in: 1987

And when Eisner started thinking about this, they started looking and looking at Haymarket, Virginia, outside of D.C. seemed like the perfect place to set up what ultimately was a theme park based on America, which is a department where you're building theme parks and fairy tales.

A little bit on American nostalgia when you look at Main street usa, but never something that was built into historical narrative like they were planning in Virginia.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:33

Yeah.

aybe tell us a bit about what: 1990

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:04:50

Yeah.

I mean, as Jared just said, Michael Eisner, and we've talked about him in the last episode as well quite a bit as this guy who kind of revitalizes the company, the conglomerate that it.

He turns it into a conglomerate, is really his kind of move, like diversification across all boards and just a lot of buying up other companies further down the line. But also theme parks become very important for him. So the early 90s, they're already building.

They've been negotiating Disneyland Paris, or what was called Euro Disney at the time for a while.

By then, basically through the 80s, it just takes a long time for them to do this with the French government, because the French government also keeps changing, because democracy. But at this moment in time, they would be building Euro Disney, which had its own controversies as it was being built.

We talked about Disney stores last time, which was an initiative. The 90s is also a time when Disney is heavily investing in Broadway and New York as part of also kind of the Disney renaissance.

It's very kind of involved with Broadway in many ways, not just working with musical artists, but also actually taking physical space in New York and on Broadway, which is something Pete Konzi has recently published a great book about. So shout out to that. But there's just a lot going on and there's probably 50 other deals.

I'm not thinking about right now, but those are really big kind of tentpoles that are happening.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:06:28

Just to add to that, too. I mean, they were thinking huge. I mean, this is when Disney Cruise Lines comes into play. They're thinking of doing a chain of daycare centers.

They were looking at airlines. And this is where Sabrina pointed to.

They're trying to create kind of a larger experience and not just be a theme park, but vacations and lifestyle and other aspects.

The growth of the Disney Channel as well is part of this kind of larger strategy of make Disney part of every facet of life, including in that purchase of abc, ESPN and sports and all of that. Being a part of Disney America is this interesting point in that.

And kind of we're not just kind of infiltrating your lives, but also education as well. And that's part of the emphasis, too, as they're developing Animal Kingdom and kind of.

That was the original goal of Epcot, too, of kind of this edutainment approach.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:07:40

Yeah. And I think edutainment is like a big, big thing before that. But it's also something that Eisner wants to front.

Like, just anecdotally, I grew up with, like, magazines you could buy at the newsstand to learn English with, with Disney cartoons, for instance, stuff like that. And that's the same era. This is also the early mid-90s. So.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:01

But I also think there's an important distinction to make here, and please do attack me if I'm wrong here, but I think, you know, there is a difference between Disney trying to do everything and Disney trying to appeal to everyone. And I think 90s Disney, I mean, even to an extent now, are aimed very much at white audiences. Is that fair?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:08:25

Yeah.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:08:26

Yeah. And I mean, again, you're looking at.

Even when you're looking at the Disney Renaissance films, even when you have kind of diversity, whether it's Aladdin or Mulan or. And Pocahontas is going to come up, because in Disney's America, they were planning a Native American village and they were going to brand it.

I mean, even if they said it was going to be separate, it's really hard to imagine them not branding the Native American village and connected with that. So it's still. Even with their kind of diverse storytelling, it's still coming from a white gaze for white audiences.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:09:03

Yeah. Which is also because of all of the creators that make these films white.

Like, the only diversity you have is some of the voice actors, or not even them. Like, I mean, Scott Weinger voices, Aladdin, Judy Coon, is the singing voice for Pocahontas.

The speaking voice is a, is an indigenous actress whose name I'm unfortunately forgetting. But like there was a lot of backlash around that too. And I don't think she, she maybe wasn't that happy with it either.

Even though she couldn't say at that moment in time. Like there was definitely like a lot of controversy particularly around that film. But yeah, I fully agree with you.

I also wrote about like this was going to turn into the Pocahontas, like the synergy for Pocahontas coming out.

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:50

Yeah.

Although I feel like sometimes Disney can't really win because when they do try and like not even over represent but just like very deliberately add diversity to their cast, especially in like, you know, various live action remakes they're doing, they also come under fire from other groups who then say, well, these characters are not, you know, were never intended to be this particular demographic. Why are you casting them like this?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:10:14

So like mermaids aren't black.

I mean to be fair, and I mean like we're going to get into necessarily because this happens at the time of like one of the big, what's sometimes called like the first wave of culture wars. I think that's technically earlier, but the 90s is a big hot point. Or the history wars specifically.

But I mean one could play devil's advocate and say why are we listening to the other side, AKA the white supremacists in the first place? But Disney certainly is always trying to balance right and left for sure. Let's put it this way.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:10:51

And as Sabrina knows, I mean also in this time they launched Splash Mountain in Disneyland and then three years later in Disney World. And I mean part of it was reusing animatronics they already had.

But Song of the south is, I mean it's a banned movie, which is unusual for Disney where they would have the disclaimer now on Disney but still play it.

And so the fact that they had built a ride around a banned movie about the south shows kind of where their head was in terms of not quite understanding the long term cultural impact of some. And it's interesting, interesting.

r negated some history within: 1920

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:11:55

Yeah. And not to go too far off track, but also the arguments with this, obviously it was a different time.

Like as you said, Song of the south was long banned by the time they're doing this in the late 80s. It's the late 80s. Also the NAACP protest song of the south when it comes out. So, no, there's like no excuse of, like, this wasn't racist in the 40s.

It was racist in the 40s. But it's also an interesting anecdote because it's exactly kind of one of the things how Eisner operates where he was like, we need a flume ride.

We need a thrill ride. And then Tony Baxter was like, hey, we have these critters. Like, yeah, yeah.

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:33

But I think this is all very relevant when we talk about Disney's America, because, well, I mean, let's just get into it. Firstly, who even okayed this idea in the first place? How did that get out of the boardroom?

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:12:46

I mean, I would point to Eisner. I mean, he. I mean, it was his idea to begin with. Obviously.

Now you had heavy buy in by the Imagineers with Bob Weiss, who kind of had that famous line about putting yourself in the shoes of slaves at that opening press conference, which was kind of, again, the first red flag. Exactly. But I mean, this was always Eisner's baby. And you hear in the Imagineering story, he doesn't blame it on the cultural aspects.

He blames it on just a variety of things going on.

The losses at Euro Disney or at Disney Paris, now the loss of Frank Wells during this time, who was kind of a counterbalance to Eisner, where kind of Eisner money was no object. And again, it's interesting. And Eisner would host Wonderful World of Disney. In many ways, he embodied what Walt Disney was, a capitalist.

Disney's famous line is kind of. I'm paraphrasing here, but someone asked, what is the biggest challenge to you? And he just says, money. That he has all these ideas.

And it's very much Eisner, where Eisner had these grand ideas. And the really only limitation in his mind was financing it. But ultimately, he doesn't blame the cultural aspects to this.

He blames the financial position and the leadership issues, because Katzenberger was also looking to leave as well, which would go to found DreamWorks. And he was also. So Frank Wells kind of was an intermediary between the two. And to not have that balance.

For Eisner, who was directly overseeing the project, which was being done secretly next door to where the Imagineers usually work in Glendale, it probably in some form would have went off or moved forward, but they just didn't have the wherewithal to kind of stick with the project with everything else going on.

Liam Heffernan: 00:15:00

Yeah.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:15:01

And, I mean, I guess we're gonna talk about the boycotts of the park in a second.

But, like, initially, like, when this falls apart, to be fair, like, the Disney leadership has a very bad moment because Katzenberg leaves, Wells dies in a helicopter crash, and Eisner has to have bypass surgery. So it's like it just crumbles or like, there's like, a momentary.

I mean, Eisner stays on for another decade before he hands over to Bob Iger, but it's. Yeah, it's just clearly something is, like, it's not a great moment for them.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:15:36

And they're still. I mean, they're dealing with mgm, too, and other theme park issues. And so it was just. Yeah, a lot of balancing.

And when you lose a leader like Wells and then Katzenberg is looking to exit because he doesn't get along with Eisner, I think. Yeah, it was just. It kind of just was already on the back burner a little bit. And again, they didn't give up after that either.

I mean, they tried to implant it at Knott's Berry Farm, and then Knott's was like, we'll sell to literally anyone but Disney.

And so because they were planning, like, it in monorail between Knott's Berry and Disneyland, which is six miles to build a monorail that far and not. And, again, transverse a number of neighborhoods and things like that.

It wasn't like the inclusive monorail we see at Disney World, where they own everything. But they didn't give up. They continued to kind of press that. And a lot of. Several of the attractions would make it into other parks.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:16:48

Yeah. Like, mostly Disney California Adventure, which is another one of Eisner's babies in that way.

Liam Heffernan: 00:16:56

So then let's actually explain what Disney's America is or was planned to be. I mean, who wants to take this?

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:17:05

I mean. Yeah, go ahead, Sabrina. Why don't you?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:17:08

I don't know. You probably know as well as I do. My paper was a while ago, but, like, you know, like, I have it open to look at it again.

So it starts like the Hub, as we call it. So the entrance area was going to be themed to a village in the Civil War, because this is also near Manassas Battlefield, so.

Which is an important Civil War site. And I think this is already where they went wrong. But we can come back to this.

And then there was gonna be something called Crossroads usa, which is just, like, also, again, the Hub. And Spoke system kind of a thing. It's not gonna be fully hub and spoke, but it's gonna go from there.

all chronologically. This is: 1600

So a native American village, and again, probably a Pocahontas synergy tie in thing. Then there would have been a Lewis and Clark expedition raft. Right.

Again, I mean, we have concep and they change over time, so take it all with a grain of salt. But those were some of these ideas.

There would have been President Square focusing on the War of Independence and the Founding Fathers, which is, of course, something that does exist in Disney Parks in the form of Magic Kingdom. In the Magic Kingdom and parts of it in the American Adventure Pavilion in Epcot. So some of this stuff in certain ways already exists.

It's not like hall of Presidents exists at the Magic Kingdom. Right. There would have been a Civil War fort, apparently.

So they might have also dabbled in battle reenactments, which, of course, is a very important American pastime. That is absolutely unproblematic.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:18:56

And I mean that. Yeah, I mean, it was gonna be like a nighttime show. It was gonna be the Monitor versus Merrimack.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:19:03

Yeah.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:19:03

And so it's gonna be a water show. And so, like, you just imagine like fireworks and like, all these ridiculous things around a major battle of a war about slavery.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:19:15

Exactly. No, no, no. It's a war about states rights. Of course. Yeah, of course. I'm sorry. Sorry. I hope the sarcasm translates.

I don't know who's gonna listen to this. So.

th century to: 1930

So they were probably gonna do a reproduction of Ellis island, which again, also super under controversial. And then there was going to be a coaster called the Industrial Revolution. There was gonna be something.

family farm that is actually: 1930

At least they had a farming aspect more early on in the park, but just focused on California. So bits and pieces of this survive or already exist elsewhere as they're doing this, which is, again, how Disney Parks always work.

And then they were gonna do World War II Victory Field. Yeah. And I guess that's technically when it stops.

But then at some point in the concepts, you have something with the Vietnam War, which is already would. Which is one of the things that comes. One of the biggest points of controversy as well, is the idea that they could deal with.

How would Disney deal with something like the Vietnam War? Never mind slavery. Right.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:21:47

Yeah.

And just to add to that, I mean, even, like, I know the farming was going to have, like, an exhibit about the Dust bowl, but as Sabrina points out, there wasn't really engagement with the Great Depression. The industrial ride, at some point was supposed to go through a steel mill. And then they couldn't.

They didn't feel like they could actually or accurately reflect that. You also. And again, some of this, too, is just people throwing out ideas. Like, even some of the industrial.

They're talking about having tenement, like, examples. And also, I mean, this is always my favorite. And this made through most of the conversations and most of the.

Having the Muppets bring people through the story of immigration was always my favorite because that was one of kind of the. They were working with Jim Henson. He died. They're talking about purchasing Muppets. Obviously, you have Muppet 3D and MGM.

And so they're going to do something. They were supposed to do multiple rides with the Muppets. And one.

One of them was supposed to be the Ellis island immigration story, as Sabrina pointed out. And so you start seeing this trickling in of characters in really serious and uncomfortable periods. And this is, again, the constant.

Everyone was like, we know what's gonna happen. They kept presenting it as if it's gonna be a purely American park, but they were going to have characters there. There's no doubt.

They were going to have different forms of branding.

You look at some maps, they don't talk about this in detail, but at some point in one of the prospectus maps I saw it had a building within the Civil War that said Roots. And so they're ultimately going to plan something similar to the miniseries and book written by Alex Haley. And again, this is. Roots is monumental.

Not to say it's perfect, but it was. For the first time, many white Americans had a deeper view of slavery in the United States. And then you're gonna turn it into a theme park ride.

And so. And again, I don't know how far they even got into conversations with Haley regarding this. But, yeah, Sabrina.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:24:16

Yeah. In one note on Alex Haley, and I have a note on the Muppets But Alex Haley at least worked with Disney. He was actually one of the people.

And I'm sure you know this, but like, was more sympathetic towards the idea in the end. So it does make sense that Roots pops up there. So I do think this must have made it at least longer in the gestation process of like, at least.

At least. Or they put it in there to get Alex Haley on board and then threw it out again because he was like, probably not.

But at least that's likely how they got in contact with Alex Halley, because he did work on the retheme or redoing of some parts of the American Adventure Pavilion's big kind of history attraction in Epcot.

So he came out in this whole battle that then unfolded between historians about this thing kind of more on the side of Disney in terms of like, look, they're gonna do this anyway. Why are we gonna do this with them? So you had a more, I guess, practical approach. And I guess he also liked money, which is fine.

We don't make that much.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:25:23

Yeah, and I think, I mean, again, that's a lot of people's attitudes is like, we're not going to stop Disney, so we might as well work with them.

And so you see a few historians, I wouldn't say fall in line, but say, okay, either I can try to move this in a better direction or I can oppose it and it's going to be even more inaccurate than it already is.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:25:50

Look, if Disney or like Hollywood would ask me to come on and as a consultant, I would probably come on.

Unless I would have to work with someone I completely object to and I like, I don't know, I wouldn't work Harvey Weinstein, but like, you know what I mean, most of us wouldn't say no to this unless, like, I mean, some people had opinions. But like, realistically, if you want to be a public facing historians, this is one of the ways you can at least do something.

Liam Heffernan: 00:26:21

Okay. Is there on any level at all, could this just have been just a wild joke? Because no, I. This, like, it's absurd to me.

Like the things that you've just listed off and the plans for this park. I mean, the second part of the question in this episode is why didn't it happen? I mean, it's pretty obvious, isn't it?

This is a bad idea from start to finish.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:26:55

I want to say.

I mean, look at how much history there already is in Disney parks, which is also, I think, something that nobody reflects on in a lot of the public discussion at the Time, at least in newspapers and so on. Which is again where someone like Alex Haligo goes, look, they're gonna do it anyway.

In fact, they've done it and they've always done it, because frontierlanders, history, the Magic Kingdom again has a bunch of history attractions because they open during the bicentennial. Epcot has them. And were they a good idea? I don't know, but probably maybe not. But they're still there.

And people go there and millions and millions of people go there every day and they will have a bigger audience than any even blockbuster Hollywood film would ever. So.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:27:45

And the immersive aspect can't be forgotten either, that it's.

We still have kind of psychologically at least some separation when we're watching a movie, when it's surrounding you, when you're in the hall of Presidents and you're seeing animatronic presidents acting out this diluted version of history. It's. Yeah. I mean, it, it's everywhere. And Walt knew that.

I mean, this is why he was commissioned to build attractions for the World's Fair, which made their way to Disney World later and Disneyland later, like Small World. I mean, this is again, his very rose colored view. And he was always very nostalgic. He had a tough childhood. That's where we get Main street, usa.

But he, he was always linking kind of these stories to this nostalgic view, particularly of America.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:28:43

Yeah. And great moments with Mr. Lincoln because he was an admirer of Abraham Lincoln, just like many people in the usr and coming back to the Civil War.

n sitting at Disneyland since: 1964

And there's multiple reasons of why this failed, but just that it's a bad idea for Disney to do history. That has never stopped them because again, Pocahontas also got made.

Liam Heffernan: 00:29:19

So I think the critical flaw here in Disney's America, to me, is that in the main, in Disneyland and Disneyland, everywhere else, as we spoke about on the last episode, there is this sort of willing suspension of disbelief. Right. We are entering sort of the world of Disney and it's something more fantastical and magical when it's not real life.

So attractions like that that are dotted around a Disney park, okay, they're problematic, but we don't accept them as particularly fact or, you know, as an education of any sort. Disney's America is different. That's Disney trying to say, this is American history and this is. You're not. They're taking you out of that magic.

And that's the problem, surely.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:30:12

I mean, that was an argument against epcot too, saying that there isn't the magic there, that you have kind of half innovation, half this exploration of the world, which, again, is extremely problematic. But it is presented as these are the myths or these are the cultural experiences.

Now, in the current epcot, those experiences are lubricated with alcohol, but ultimately, and again, they're in development for Animal Kingdom. And that's similar too, in terms of Disneyfying our understanding of conservation.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:30:53

Yeah. I think the point also is, and I don't want to say this in a way of people, like, I don't want to insult people's intelligence.

That's not the angle I'm taking.

But the thing is, the average consumer, the average park visitor, the average moviegoer, is not that educated on American history, because we can talk at length about American history education in Americans public schools. Same for the uk, same for Germany, but particularly of a certain generation as well.

More people than you think go to a park and go to hall of Presidents and say, this is American history and this is the fact.

And they say this about the film the Patriot too, which is, as the actor Jason Isaacs has said, more like Harry Potter is more realistic than the Patriot. But like it is, people don't reflect on that.

And even like people like my own parents, who I think are educated people, they watch a historical film or they watch something based on, like, real life, and they go, oh, I think this is kind of close to what it is. And I think this is the attitude people take even when they are in an otherwise fantastical environment.

And again, the immersive, the immersion and the immersiveness of attractions. I mean, think about Assassin's Creed video games or any other history historically themed video games that also have a level of immersion to them.

A lot of people think these are like, educational and.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:32:27

And again, I mean, we keep coming back to like Pocahontas and. But they're, they're moving in this direction where it's easy to kind of hide behind fairy tales.

And especially when you're adapting fairy tales and say, well, again, this is a story that was told and we brought it to animation versus Pocahontas isn't. And. And the way Disney told that story is what was in history books that was being taught to kids and then you're reinforcing it.

With this flowery tale of, again, a woman. And that's important in the film. She's a woman. In true life, she's a young girl. And that's ignored.

And so they're also moving in that direction of being more comfortable telling these ahistorical stories as part of their larger narrative. And so they're not hiding from that. And also just the idea in terms of human life.

And I think it points back to kind of an earlier question around kind of whiteness and kind of when you look at the hall of Presidents, oh, Lincoln, I freed the slaves. And that's it in terms of the story of the ownership and the genocide of entire population.

And then you're getting to Disney America, where you're going to tell that story. You're going to have, I mean, one ride, to have dog fights in that victory field.

I mean, you're kind of having this fun two planes battling each other around the devastation caused in Germany and in Europe, and you're breaking it down into a roller coaster. As Sabrina has pointed out over and over, this is not new for them. It's just more concentrated.

And they happen to pick, and Sabrina brought this up earlier, they picked one of the most serious and devastating civil war sites to build down the street from. And to go from kind of this spilling of blood over slavery to the Muppets. Telling you what it was like at Ellis island is jarring.

And again, it wasn't.

That's the other thing about this, is it wasn't ever going to be isolated, that they were planning to have shuttles and build hotels not just around the site, but in Washington, D.C. too, and connect larger vacations around that. Because that was always part of their pitch at that time. 19 million people visit D.C. a year.

And so we can tap into that and then bring more people into Virginia. But they've never done this in such a residential area. They have never done this with that type of narrative.

But again, those weren't the obstacles that they couldn't overcome. It was just capitalism and timing. That was really kind of the death knell for Disney's America.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:35:30

And I do think the other death knell.

And I know we've completely ruined your script by now, probably, Liam, but it's a nice segue because I think because of the proximity to all of this, this is another big issue of why this doesn't happen, at least not there. As you rightly said earlier, Jared, they try elsewhere. So that's not it.

But, like, the location is a very, very big sticking point, which is why at some point they should have just earlier said, we're not going to do it here. To be honest, I think that controversy would have gone away. It became so big because they stuck location.

And they tried to do the thing of like, and we go to D.C. and we go to the actual battlefield. And that's when people from across the political aisle suddenly had a bone to pick with it.

And that has something to do with what else was going on at the time. So the location they were in, again, it was near the residential areas. It was where a lot of wealthy people lived.

And they literally said, not in my backyard. And the other aspect is the battlefield. And it's not even just like, this is we're spilling blood about slavery.

It was also the conservatives or more right wingers even, who were like, but this is where Americans shed their blood. And it was literal, like blood and soil and of dying soldiers. So it was also about Confederate soldiers. And so that became a whole thing.

And there was this larger debate about historical attractions to begin with. There's a big controversy at the same time about the Enola Gay. So the bombing in World War II. There was going to be an exhibit about it.

Now I'm going to get this wrong, I think in the National Air and Space Museum in one of the big Smithsonian.

And that was boycotted because also at that point, you still have live World War II veterans who didn't want necessarily a more inclusive history being told about Japanese victims suffering. It was still very much about heroic memory. But again, this turned into a big sticking point of kind of culture wars around historical topics.

And in comes Disney building within kind of like the walking distance of some of this stuff. So it's. Yeah, I think this is. This is really one of the big sticking points that they then can make it work elsewhere is another story. But.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:37:46

And I mean, kind of in this failure kind of going. And this is again another mistake where they went with. With the Disney World strategy of buying up a bunch of land under different names.

And they couldn't get away with that because of it being a residential area and being so much. And so too many people knew.

And so that also moved up their timeline because typically they would buy the land and then have backdoor conversations with politicians and stakeholders and things like that, and then make the announcement and know they have the backing. But when it was leaked, then they had to move up everything.

And it kind of led to this panic and that press conference where Bob Weiss makes those statements and things like that.

And so they were very Much in a weird way out of their element that the previous two major sites, they're able to buy up land outside of kind of residential areas. Now obviously they're outside of cities in Anaheim and Orlando, but there wasn't development there.

And they represented actually developing those places where Haymarket was like, we can develop ourselves. They bought that Exxon site and a number of other sites, but they just didn't really know how to truly navigate what they dealt with.

And also too talking about politicians, it was significant. Significant being 30 miles from D.C. and having to get federal support. And there's that four hour.

It's still on C span.com, that four hour hearing where you have the governor of Virginia signing off and making kind of these flowery statements. You have Ben Nighthorse Campbell putting on a Mickey Mouse hat in Congress to be like. And again, he would change parties after this.

He was a Democrat, he would switch to Republican and he was just like, well, like free speech and capitalism and all this stuff. And then he puts on the Mickey Mouse ears.

And so kind of to have a show like that on C Span and it was aired live on cnbc again is significant in kind of this larger narrative where they couldn't do this in secret or they couldn't do it kind of build their backing before everyone started piling on them.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:40:26

Yeah.

And also speaking of the rich residents, you know, who lives in Virginia not far from D.C. the owners of the Washington Post are literal neighbors and Pulitzer Prize winning journalists who also live there and just don't want this again in their backyard. So these are some of the key figures in mounting the backlash against Disney.

So I think they already lost PR wise because they're up against people who can actually hold their own.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:40:54

The Post hated the idea.

It was, I mean, reading back on those articles, the New York Times had a little more balance where they would kind of produce opinions and counter opinions, which is like, no, like absolutely not.

And we're going to put all our resources, I don't want to say all our resources, but we're going to put all kind of our viewpoints toward being against this.

Liam Heffernan: 00:41:16

Yeah, I mean, I'm not surprised that journalists did not like the idea. I do think some credit is due to Disney because it is not easy to get Democrats and Republicans to agree on something for that alone.

I think credit where credit's due. But what was the general public's reaction to this announcement though? Was there support otherwise for this?

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:41:41

I mean, I think it was similar to the reaction kind of we're Seeing it was a lot of people being like, really, is this the direction we want to go in terms of kind of a Civil War site?

But some were, there was excitement over kind of bringing entertainment to that area, bringing a theme park to that area as a part of kind of a larger vacation experience.

And so, I mean, I think the same mixture we see with the historian community, with politicians, we see with the public, with a lot of people saying this is uncomfortable. And some people being like, well, I love the hall of Presidents, I love Main Street USA and I would love something.

And again, there was some people being like, well, my kid won't read anything about history. At least this is something.

And so there were some people that kind of embraced that edutainment approach to telling American history, because they're like, otherwise my kid won't engage with it.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:42:50

Also in terms of local residents, aside from like, most of the rich people live in like neighboring counties, but the Prince William county and Haymarket where this was going to be actually built, they had actually had economic problems in the years before. So they had more unemployment rates. A lot of people have moved away, businesses had to close. So of course the tourism was also going away.

So this is of course with Disney coming in. And there's an estimate, at least in one paper that I cited back then that said about 3,000 new jobs. And I mean that's conservative.

You also have to think about like all the kind of sprawl that builds around this. Other people would have been able to open motels and bed and breakfast. And that's always the thing.

Like I'd interviewed a lot by journalists now about like universal opening in the UK and like, what do you think the impact of this will be? And I always have to say it's a double edged sword because where they're currently building in the UK is the same issue.

There was a lot of unemployment. It used to be like, we know after the 80s, this is when the mining goes away, all of this stuff.

And a lot of people will benefit from such a big business venture that is also a permanent one, a permanent tourist destination, ideally for decades to come. And with Disney that's almost guaranteed. So I think most of the time, sort of the on the ground people are like, sure, why not?

Because also it forces the state to invest in public infrastructure and then the downside is the taxes. Right.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:44:26

I think one of the other obstacles that they might have been able to kind of soften is the amount of public money that was going to it.

I know the governor asked for a little over 160 million to go to Disney for the project, along with 50 million to improve sewer lines and other infrastructure, the highway that went through there. And so that was another sticking point.

It's like, okay, not only does Disney now own this land and bought cheaper because the reason why they bought any land in secret is because everyone else will jack up their prices if people know who is buying the land.

But the fact that you have such significant public money going to it, because the project as a whole was originally estimated 6 to $700 million, which is about a billion and a quarter today. But then to ask for about a quarter of that in public funding was also a huge red flag. As Sabrina was describing.

Not everyone was doing well in the early 90s. It wasn't quite the tech boom you.

We didn't quite have the consolidation of media yet when Disney would take advantage and buy ABC and Capital Cities.

And so that's always an easy way to get a lot of enemies is if you're a large multinational corporation asking for hundreds of millions of dollars because people knew it would not end there.

And also they bullied them that they basically said on the last day of legislature even, either you vote on this today or we're going to completely abandon the project.

And enough stakeholders had invested either time or money in it where that was a legitimate threat that they took seriously and ended up passing the bill to pledge those funds.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:46:31

Yeah. And then Euro Disney was similar.

The state, like both the local kind of area, Ile de France around where the park is and Paris as a city and then obviously the French government as a whole and so on. They had to put in a shit ton of money to make this thing work. And that was also something that was very controversial.

But because Disney got them into a bidding war with Spain, they got away with murder. And I think that's always a big thing. I don't know about Universal in the uk similar.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:47:06

And again, it kind of. You have. It was all an all side. You had conservation groups too coming in that it was.

It was estimated up to 50% of the orchards in Virginia might have gone away 10 to 15% of farmland, which is ironic when you have a farming portion of our territory as a part of the park itself. And so in many ways, because, and I do believe because they had to move up some of the planning because it was leaked.

They kept stepping in it and things that they. Even with Disney, and knowing how meticulous Disney is, it was a little surprising some of the mistakes they made along the way.

But Again, I feel like they would have moved forward if it wasn't for these outside issues, including Disneyland Paris losing nearly a billion dollars its first year, which was more than the estimated cost of Disney America.

Liam Heffernan: 00:48:09

Okay, so considering everything and the absolute kind of calamity that was Disney's America from start to finish, did they learn anything from this?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:48:19

No.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:48:20

I mean, good lessons, or. I mean, they learned a little better about kind of using. I mean, some of the innovations, like soaring.

They learn kind of imagineers learn some lessons, but in terms of not kind of. And I mean, again, we see, especially in the American context, they've admitted out loud, they're just like, okay, we're gonna kind of.

We're gonna lean into the conservative backlash that no longer is. Disney woke, Pixar has said, and they eliminated in Elio and other movies, some more inclusive messaging.

They've said that they're gonna get back to the.

And it's always kind of suspect we're going to get back to the core of our business, meaning they're not going to take on these diversity narratives or inclusive storylines and movies and things like that. But, I mean, Disney is a sail, and they'll move whichever way the wind blows, especially if that wind is pointing toward an island full of money.

And so ultimately, all they really learned is how to better navigate government, being a little more careful about placement of their theme parks and other ventures. But ultimately, in terms of engaging in American history, no, they never learned those types of lessons.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:49:53

And maybe they learned to, like, the PR side of this was bad and it was a catastrophe. Like, bad is another statement. And I think.

I mean, we did talk about this last time, that, like, the brand and how protective they are of the brand, and they certainly were at the time. But I would imagine that the biggest lesson from this is just who do I give a microphone to? And it's probably not Bob Weiss. Yeah.

And I mean, if you think what happened to Bob Weiss, he was the head of Imagineering for a very long time until he retired recently. Like, by now it's been a few years. But, like. So it's not about, like, firing any imagineers for these designs.

Those were never controversial in Disney's eye. I think maybe some of them were small, smart enough to listen to someone like Alex Haley coming in and doing the Epcot attraction with them.

And I would also argue that by now, there has been at least a bit of a turnover in terms of who they may have hired. But again, now we're looking at the AI initiatives being rolled back so the hiring policies will change again.

That is really as with anything, always the factor of who gets to make these things. In the early 90s, Disney Imagineering would have been white men everywhere. And that has changed in the meantime. And this might change again.

But yeah, and I mean in speaking.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:51:10

About kind of quote unquote learning again I point to Animal Kingdom and you have a bunch of white guys telling African stories. Yeah.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:51:18

Joe Rody.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:51:19

Yeah.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:51:20

Was another big shot and appears many.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:51:24

Many, many, many times in the imagineering story.

And again the imagination, like I don't take that as Bible because it's a PR documentary, but there is interesting information and also who they push forward because Weiss shows up a ton now. They never talk about. They do a two minute section on Disney's America and that thing.

And basically, I mean Eisner again is just like, yeah, everything else going on was why it failed and not never mentions a controversy. Never. Now they do get into it around Euro Disney, but I think the cultural kind of.

They blame it on the cultural aspects and never Disney's fault in terms of how many times they stepped in it in that circumstance even though it went forward. But ultimately, yeah, I mean they learn, of course they learn lessons, but none that lead to good storytelling or accurate storytelling.

When American history. All they learned is about, as Sabrina pointed out, being better about marketing and pr.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:52:28

Yeah.

And also, I mean even within the imagineering story, I think they get to be more critical when it's about the Eisner era because Eisner is per se and Eisner is someone who's always been controversial and like when he left he did not have very high public opinion, not within the company. A lot of people hated him in the company.

So I think it's easier to look back now and go, oh well, you know, I mean they're so carefully critical of it him. But it's easier than to criticize the guy that followed after because he's still the CEO except for the five minutes the other Bob replaced him. Yeah.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:53:05

And then yeah. And again it shows like, okay, like Iger knows the business, let's just bring.

And also too he knows how to negotiate kind of the politics of both sides.

But a part of this too I think I don't want to also kind of of completely overlook the final gasp attempts because they do also point out again how they see themselves and the ideology they're pointing out and kind of thinking I'm looking over my notes in that kind of New Disney's American Celebration, which was Eisner's last breath in trying to launch this project. The theme area, one was democracy, one was family or generations. And then they had the land, which is in Epcot now, that was going to be part of it.

And then it gets into work that's just a theme work. And so nothing more capitalist than underpaid labor.

But within that, then this is where you again start seeing what we see in Downtown Disney, where they're going to partner with Ben and Jerry's and Crayola to have either mini factories or little areas to show what innovation means. They had Sacrifice, which was the replacement for Victory Fields.

They had just American people, which was where the immigration ride, streets of America, where they would put their own food out from different places in America. And so even they had Disney America Live, which was going to have rodeos and going to have kind of these other kind of western live performances.

And so even with.

When they moved away from the narrative aspect, they're still projecting an ideology that is more conservative and ultimately kind of fit within what is happening now with American museums, which is, oh, we're only going to look at the good parts of America.

And that ultimately leaves out 95% of the people and stories of America, including the more traumatic and more damaging portions of the American experience. And so that ideological viewpoint still was at the undercurrent of the last attempts in doing that that we still see in many Disney parks.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:55:36

And I do think that even though this looks like a catastrophe of epic proportions for a moment now, almost nobody remembers this unless there's a good journalist piece coming out about it. And also, Disney is a global brand. I'm sorry, no, I'm allowed to swear in this, but nobody gives a fuck abroad about this project. I don't think.

I don't think Japanese audiences care about Disney's America. Germans don't care. I mean, you brought up rodeo shows that they never did there.

But Disneyland Paris had a rodeo show that was super problematic until the pandemic. It only went away because of the pandemic that was there until five years ago.

Tokyo Disneyland still has the old Splash Mountain and has no intention of retheming it.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:56:26

And to that point, again, I completely agree that no one outside. And Sabrina, I'll use your words, no one outside of America gives a fuck.

But because of the tourism in DC, people from abroad would see Disney Park 30 miles away, and then that's their introduction to American history.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:56:51

Oh, yeah, but they would have probably liked it.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:56:54

Yeah, no, I agree. I completely agree. But I think again, it shows you and why? Kind of on the other side side of that.

That was part of the thinking around the Smithsonian, that it's not just.

And again, it's focused on Americans going to those museums, but with the recognition that international tourists coming to D.C. would go to those are free museums.

And so they're going, even if it's just for a little while, but then you're countering that with a theme park that's built around American propaganda, which would counter that.

And if they had to choose especially rich tourists between visiting a Smithsonian and visiting a Disney theme park, which one do you think they're going to choose?

And again, Disney knew they could siphon off some of that to bring to that Virginia site 30 miles away, because they would have been running shuttles and if not some type of weird this point drone or whatever to get Those people the 30 miles out west to Haymarket.

Liam Heffernan: 00:58:04

I mean, there's so much, there's so much to talk about and to address from this conversation.

I think we need a whole spin off podcast Disney History coming soon, but I think we have to wrap it up there, even though we could go on for hours and hours about all of this. Jared and Sabrina, thank you so much for joining me for this discussion.

Even though I've basically just been a bystander listening to you two the whole hour, which has been fascinating.

And for anyone else that has been listening and enjoying this conversation, all the links to everything that we've discussed will be in the show notes as well. So go and check that out. But if anyone wants to connect with either of you, where can they do that?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:58:43

Sabrina, I'm on bluesky since I left Twitter for reasons, you can just find me under my full name, Sabrina Mittermaier, and the same on Instagram. That's probably your best bet. Or you just send me an email. Very old school, which should also be easy to find.

Liam Heffernan: 00:58:58

Great.

Jared Bahir Browsh: 00:58:59

And Jared, for me, LinkedIn is usually my preferred social media professional contact, but also my first and last name, Jared Brausch at Colorado Edu.

But like Sabrina, that's the nice thing about having a unique last name that you just look up Barash in University of Colorado and it's pretty easy to find.

Liam Heffernan: 00:59:20

Yeah, I mean my surname's Heffernan, so I can relate.

And if anyone is listening to this, wants to connect with me for whatever reason, I'm also on LinkedIn and Bluesky and just search for my name and you'll find me.

If you enjoy listening to the podcast, please leave us a rating and a review wherever you are listening to this and give us a follow as well if you're not already, so that all future episodes appear in your feed. Also, make sure that you check out part one of our conversation about Disney, which will be just below this one on your feed.

And if you follow the links in the show notes as well, you can support the show from as little as $1. So if you care to do that, that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all for listening and good.