IN THE MAKING: Will the Epstein Scandal Actually Change Anything?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:03

With reaction and insights to the biggest stories and breaking news from the usa and a little bit of history thrown in. This is America, a history in the making. Hello, and welcome to another America, a history in the making. A slightly ad hoc episode this week.

I wasn't really planning to do one, but considering everything that's happening in America right now, it felt appropriate to do a bit of an Epstein special, which I feel weird using those two words next to each other, but there we are. Joining me to do that is friend of the show, Alyssa Royce. Welcome back.

Alyssa Royse: 00:00:46

Thank you. It's always awesome to talk to you, Liam.

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:49

Yeah, it's really great to have you back on the podcast. Now, there's a reason particularly why I think it's important to have you on this episode, and we'll talk about that in a short while.

But first, probably important to note, actually that we are recording this on Tuesday, the 18th of November, and about an hour or so ago, the House of Representatives just started debating the bill, which, if passed, would then go to the Senate, and ultimately, if passed, would mean the Epstein files would be released in full. So a big week and maybe not quite as straightforward as we might expect.

Alyssa Royse: 00:01:27

No, starting with, I would put full in scare quotes. They will not be released in full, no matter what happens.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:36

Well, yeah, I would agree with you.

However, when you look at the cracks that are emerging in the Republican ranks, I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene becoming one of the fiercest critics of Trump on this matter, and who would have thought that a year. A year or so ago?

Alyssa Royse: 00:01:53

No, not. Not me. Although I think what we're starting to see is that she is a very astute politician, is what she is.

I think she wants his job, she wants his position at the head of maga. And honestly, as of today, it looks to me like she's going to at least take the latter and hopefully not the former.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:09

Yeah, I mean, she's definitely putting the wheels in motion for what seems like a very obvious candidacy run in a couple of years. Right?

Alyssa Royse: 00:02:17

100%.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:18

But I mean, regardless of the intent behind it, at least it's correct for Republicans, be it Marjorie Taddegrene or anyone else, to be standing up for what their electorate voted them in for, which was on the promise of releasing the Epstein files. And Trump's done a U turn on that. And the Republicans underneath him are saying, well, no, actually we got elected on that mandate.

We need to deliver that.

Alyssa Royse: 00:02:43

And I also, I. I want to. And just because it's my nature and I'm. I'm wrong as Often, if not more often than I'm right.

I want to believe that they have enough human decency that the trafficking and raping of children is not a political issue. Like, let that be one thing we agree collectively is bad.

Liam Heffernan: 00:03:00

I mean, I think that's, yeah, that that should be a fairly universal thing to agree on. Is that. Yeah, regardless of politics, you know, that's bad. Um, so. Yeah, yeah.

So, okay, so to explain the process to, to, to people who aren't in the US and correct me here if I'm wrong, but the first stage of, of a bill is it goes through the House of Representatives.

So Congress, they debate it, they pass it, it then goes up to the Senate, which is for anyone in the uk it's like it would be the equivalent of it going from Parliament up to the House of Lordship. It then gets further discussed and passed by the Senate and then ultimately it has to get signed off by the President for that bill to become law.

Correct.

Alyssa Royse: 00:03:44

And it can change from the House to the Senate.

So sometimes they go back and forth, you know, a smidge and so they're already, the Senate is already making noises that if they get it, they're going to make some changes. Mike Johnson is already being, you know, a pissy little whiner about not getting to make all the changes he wanted to make. So this is just step one.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:03

Yeah, of course.

However, it is an important step because I think if the bill passes, as with the majority that it's expected to pass with in Congress, that says a lot about how Republicans are really splitting from Trump on this issue.

Alyssa Royse: 00:04:21

Yeah, it's really, it's, it's stark.

And even just the progress in the last few weeks, remember when the, when Mike Johnson told the House that, nevermind, we're not going to work and he shut down the government. He did it because there was a one vote margin for releasing this bill or releasing, you know, arguing this bill.

And that vote would only take place if he swore in Grijilva. I was pronounced it wrong. I'm sorry. And now that she's in, there's like, it looks like it could be damn close to unanimous.

So there's been a huge shift in the last few weeks.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:54

Yeah, yeah.

I mean it's almost as though Republicans now were following the party line up to a point, but now where it seems like the vote is just going to go against them, they're kind of thinking, well, we've got to jump on this. You can't be on the wrong side of this.

Alyssa Royse: 00:05:11

They're going to Try and protect their own jobs, which, again, fine, if that's what it takes.

Liam Heffernan: 00:05:14

Yeah, yeah. But I read in the news just before this call, actually, that Trump has done a bit of a U turn himself.

Am I right in thinking that he's now saying, vote to release the files. We've got nothing to hide.

Alyssa Royse: 00:05:28

He is now urging the. The GOP to vote to release the files, which, I mean, to me, all that says is they've been. They've been stalling this since the spring. Right.

And when, you know, Patel took, I don't know, something like a thousand FBI agents off of their actual FBI duties and had them combing through these files to identify every mention of Trump. So Trump making this about face to me, just says they finished their work in, like, erasing him from the files.

I don't know that, but that just seems convenient.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:01

Yeah.

And there's also this classic, like, Trump deflection going on as well, where, like, the very day that Congress is talking about releasing the Epstein files, and this is actually a growing, like, plausible outcome for him, he's sitting in the White House saying to the press, look, here's $1 trillion from Saudi Arabia. Isn't this amazing?

Alyssa Royse: 00:06:24

Isn't that disgusting?

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:26

Yeah.

Alyssa Royse: 00:06:26

It's also, also the day after. Did you. Did you guys get the quiet piggy reporting in England?

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:31

No. No.

Alyssa Royse: 00:06:32

So there was a press gaggle on Air Force One yesterday. There's always a press gaggle on Air Force One.

And a female reporter yesterday asked Trump something about the Epstein files, and he wagged his finger at her and said, quiet, quiet piggy.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:46

Wow.

Alyssa Royse: 00:06:47

Yeah. So that's also. That's sweeping the news and social media here anyway.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:52

Wow.

Alyssa Royse: 00:06:53

And it's really, you know, he's ruffled, he's scared, and he should be.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:59

The biggest question here for Trump is because by all accounts, at the moment, from what we've seen, Trump appears to have been in contact with Epstein for a lot longer than he ever should have been and potentially also while he was president. And, you know, I think that's a separate conversation about conduct and whether that means he's appropriate to do his job. I don't think it is.

But that's another conversation. I think, from what we've seen so far, though, he's not done anything criminal by all accounts.

And he actually did distance himself from Epstein at the point that he appeared to find out that he was doing stuff wrong, even if he then later reconnected with him, which, again, not okay. But I feel like even if Trump has done a Lot wrong there. Does certainly. He's almost dug himself a deeper hole.

Alyssa Royse: 00:07:47

Yeah, he's. You know, they say the COVID up is often worse than the crime, right?

Liam Heffernan: 00:07:51

Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Royse: 00:07:52

I think that I'm not as willing as you are to assume that he didn't do anything illegal. But let's, let's, let's say that he didn't. Let's say that he himself did not do any, do any of those things. You know, this about me.

I feel like when you cover up for your friends who are doing it, you're just as guilty.

And I would say that about literally no matter what your political party is, no matter what position you hold in society or academia, there's no way that the people in Jeffrey Epstein's orbit didn't know. And to simply distance yourself, that's not enough. That's like children are being trafficked and raped. Distancing yourself is not enough.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:32

Yeah, and therein is the real question here, because irrespective of whether Trump has done anything illegal or not, which is a whole nother another issue to deal with potentially while he was president, he knowingly maintained contact and potentially even socialized with a convicted. I don't know what specifically he was convicted of, but they knew what he was up to, right?

Alyssa Royse: 00:08:55

They, yeah, he was considered, I think traffic, I think trafficking is what he was. Yeah, I'm, I'm blanking on names. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But like Trump, Trump did more than just know.

He hired Pam Bondi, who was part of covering up, you know, the Epstein crime when it finally was brought to light in Florida. And he got the sweetheart deal and got off the hook. Pam Bondi was part of that. He put into office, you know, Pam Bondi. And I'm blanking his name.

Help me. Skinny little guy who made, who was the attorney who actually got him the deal.

It's like it's all part of the COVID up that got Jeffrey Epstein this sweetheart deal. And Jeffrey Epstein, you know, now we know he's connected to Larry Summers. Now we know he's connected to all of these other people.

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:34

Yeah.

Alyssa Royse: 00:09:35

You know, what you're covering up is campaign financing. You're covering up your friends, you're covering up all of these connections that ultimately keep you in power.

So you could pull at any hair of that, any string in that ball and the whole thing unravels.

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:51

ality to such an extent since: 2016

What he did was cover up a bit of petty theft during an election campaign in hindsight, relative to this. Yeah. And yet Trump, there's not been really any calls for him to consider resigning or for removing him from office.

And yet he's been associated with this fairly horrific stuff.

Alyssa Royse: 00:10:36

Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's a lot of things you see, and this gets back to the giant ball of hair, right, is that our, our, our campaign finance system is really dependent on wealthy people, people getting what they want from politicians. And so politicians then sort of do everything they can do to sort of give the wealthy people what they want. And that's what, that's what this is.

It's really that simple.

Liam Heffernan: 00:10:59

Yeah.

Alyssa Royse: 00:11:00

And you guys, like, you know, poor Andrew over there got kicked out of his castle, you know, so, like, obviously this isn't, this isn't fake, you know, Prince Charles didn't dethrone his brother over a democratic hoax in America, you know.

Liam Heffernan: 00:11:14

Yeah, that's not what happened exactly. I mean, this, it's, this isn't just a small thing.

And, and, and I, I, it makes, and, and I do wonder, even though right now, you know, Trump is kind of sort of hiding from, you know, really addressing this head on, I do wonder if after all the stuff we've seen from Trump in the last decade, all the stuff he's done and all the scandals that he's managed to wriggle away from, if this could be the snowball that actually does take him down. Because as you said yourself, the issues that we're talking about here, these are universal.

Whatever side of the political fence you're on, people care about this.

Alyssa Royse: 00:11:55

And I will say, and again, I am usually overly optimistic and give people the benefit of the doubt when I shouldn't. Things feel really different here to me. Like this, this feels profoundly different.

The government shutdown was the biggest mistake that the GOP possibly could have made because everybody knew they were doing it to stop the Epstein files from coming out.

People are hurting here for a whole lot of reasons, but there's a whole lot of people who don't want to back off of the, you know, frankly, racist and sort of generally ignorant stands that they took in regards to immigration, in regards to all this other stuff.

But here's something that they can say, oh, wait, maybe I can stop this train, but I'm going to pretend it's about, you know, the sex trafficking of kids. And I don't have to admit that I was wrong about everything else. And so it's really, really handy.

If you're looking for an off ramp and you've entrenched yourself, you know, in this absolute train wreck, you can say, oh, wait, no, here's, you know, here's a. Here's a lever I can pull. Here's the brakes. So it's super handy. And it feels different here. It feels different.

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:58

Yeah. I'm definitely sort of getting the vibe from this side of the pond that there is a change in mood.

And, you know, it feels like there's three kind of scenarios at this point now.

Either Trump continues to dig his heels in and doesn't release the files, in which case there's just going to be more and more resentment, more and more anger. He does release the Epstein files, and either he isn't really implicated in anything and it is all just sort of made up.

In which case, like, why has he put everyone through all of this? Just for that, that's not the case, or, yeah, he is in the Epstein files, in which case, obviously, much bigger issues there to deal with.

I don't see how Trump wins from any of those three scenarios.

So it just makes me think it's going to get to a point where even JD Vance is going to be thinking, when's my opportunity to throw him under the bus because I've got to save my own career here.

Alyssa Royse: 00:13:52

Well, what's interesting is the only way J.D. vance can really throw him under the bus is with the 25th Amendment. Right.

But half of Trump's Cabinet is fully wrapped up in the Epstein files as well. Right. And so you can't do the 25th amendment without the support of the cabinet. JD Vance is not going to get the support of the cabinet.

Maga doesn't like J.D. vance because he's, you know, married to a woman who isn't white. And he's also just, my God, what a douchebag.

You know, like, so he's sort of screwed either way, too.

Liam Heffernan: 00:14:21

I mean, there's. If the rumors are to be believed, I wouldn't be surprised if he. If he has a quicker marriage to Erica Kirk before the next election cycle. Right.

Alyssa Royse: 00:14:31

I got a little wager about whether Erica Kirk hooks up with J.D. vance or with Trump himself. So, like, I don't.

Liam Heffernan: 00:14:38

I don't need that image in my head. Thank you.

Alyssa Royse: 00:14:40

Yeah, it's. It's pretty gross.

Yeah, I, I don't see an out for either one of them, which is really sad because we are in fact stuck with them for the foreseeable future. But if.

If what we're stuck with is a lame duck presidency where they can't do anything, you know, it terrible to say that might be our best case scenario.

Liam Heffernan: 00:14:59

e Democrats are getting in in: 2028

But I mean, now what happened on our last election. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it suddenly, it does feel like, you know, things now when you look at. At it politically.

The Democrats have suddenly sort of found a bit of a voice, found a bit of a personality again. And just at the time when the Republicans are starting to become a little bit more fragmented and, and disjointed and.

Yeah, it feels like suddenly a bit of a. A long way to go for the Democrats. I mean, everything's changed. Right.

Alyssa Royse: 00:15:38

I think at this point, midterms are, are. It's. They're the Democrats to lose. So. Right. Like the Democrats have the midterms unless they fuck it up.

Now, there's never been an American political party so capable of pulling defeat out of the jaws of victory as the Democrats. So. So there's that. But I think that things like, they're actually.

While most of them refuse to endorse Mamdani, they are in fact saying, okay, this is, you know, he was elected mayor of New York and they are noticing that the politicians who are getting a lot of steam are the ones who are taking a stand on. On real issues. And so, yeah, here's hoping.

Liam Heffernan: 00:16:15

Does make me wonder if, you know, Mamdani is a future sort of VP in waiting because obviously, you know, for anyone listening constitutionally, he's. He's not actually eligible to run for president.

Alyssa Royse: 00:16:26

For president. Yeah.

Liam Heffernan: 00:16:27

So, no, I think I don't know.

Alyssa Royse: 00:16:29

The answer to that question. Does VP have the same requirements?

Liam Heffernan: 00:16:33

That's a good point, actually, because obviously VP would, would be first in line to assume the presidency, so maybe there has to be.

Alyssa Royse: 00:16:39

Yeah, I assume he can't do that either.

Liam Heffernan: 00:16:41

Interesting question. Yeah.

Alyssa Royse: 00:16:42

Doesn't mean he can't be in the Cabinet. Doesn't mean, you know, it's like he's got a bright political future, so.

Liam Heffernan: 00:16:47

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay, well, I'm going to throw to a quick ad. Please listen. Because it's how I make money.

And afterwards we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna talk a little bit more about the victims who are often lost in the whole conversation around Epstein. Welcome back. And, Alyssa, thank you for joining me for this sort of Epstein special.

There's a reason why I wanted you to join me for this conversation.

And as we talk more about those who have actually been impacted and affected directly by Epstein, well, I'll throw to you, you know, tell me your story.

Alyssa Royse: 00:18:26

Oh, gosh. Yeah. I guess for those who don't.

Don't know me, I've been super, super, super outspoken about my own life and surviving an incredibly brutal rape when I was 16. And really, for whatever reason, my personal makeup, I managed to understand that it was not my fault.

And I think that I am super, super, super lucky because we live in a society in which rape victims are shamed for being rape victims. And it's really unique to that crime. You know, if somebody gets hit by a drunk driver, they're not shamed for getting hit by a drunk driver.

Somebody gets beaten up in a bar fight, they're probably not shamed for getting beaten up.

You know, okay, there's probably circumstances there, but in general, people who survive sexual assault are often seemed as seen as sort of dirty and shameful and something they should hide. And you hear.

You hear people talk about it all the time in terms of this event ruined these women's lives, or these women are going to be suffering for the rest of their life. And a lot of that. A lot of that is the way that society talks about it actually makes it worse. And so. Yeah.

So I assume that's why you want to talk to me.

Liam Heffernan: 00:19:35

Yes, absolutely. You know, and I always remember, you know, because we've. We've been friends for some time now, and.

And I remember years ago, I read a post on a social media channel, and you were talking about the. The word victim, and you know what that means, and you sort of pushing back on. On sort of labeling yourself as a victim, I guess, at the time.

And I still sort of think, okay, well, that is. That is technically the term. But I. I think when we look at this in terms of how things like the Epstein scandal is.

Is being framed and how the media is.

Is reporting on it, there is something to be said for just how kind of disempowering using the term victim is, because we always see the story being told as about Epstein and his victims.

And I think actually, if you flip it around the other way, why isn't it about Virginia Gifreya or anyone else that has been abused by Epstein and their rapist? Because it just. It feels like that's the more humane way of addressing it.

Alyssa Royse: 00:20:37

Yeah. I don't think. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a right answer for this. Right.

Because I think that different situations and different people require different. Different approaches.

But I think that what has to happen when we look at people who have survived sexual assault or probably any great tragic event is that the event is one thing, and then the person they become after that is sort of a different thing. Right. So that I'm not forever just a victim.

I'm a person who had this thing happen in my life, and this was a big thing, and it did change who I am, and it did change the trajectory of things. But. But that's not the thing that identifies me for the whole entire rest of my life. Right. And what I do after that belongs to me. Right.

That is my strength and my perseverance and me. And I want credit for that, and I want all victims, you know, survivors, whatever you want to call them, to have credit for that.

But the rape itself and the trafficking itself belongs solely, completely, and only to Jeffrey Epstein, you know, or to the people who facilitated it. And so I feel like.

Like the people get erased in that the people to whom he did these things get get erased, and they just become his victim rather than these whole entire flesh and blood people.

Liam Heffernan: 00:21:51

Yeah, exactly. And. And, you know, even though, you know, the media are obviously all united in talking about Epstein as the villain here, because obviously he is.

It still becomes his story. And that just doesn't sit right with me.

Alyssa Royse: 00:22:08

I. I think that so. So the kind of rape. The kind of rape that I. That I experience is really different from what they experienced. Right.

So I. I had, in some ways, the classic supposedly stranger rape, you know, gunpoint, the whole thing, which made it really easy to separate and say this person was a depraved human being. I had. It had nothing to do with me. I didn't cause this. The problem with trafficking is that.

And you saw this with Matt Goetz also, like, saying he's like, well, I wasn't. You know, I didn't do anything wrong. I gave her money for braces. Well, what he really did was rape a teenager and give her money for it.

But because she was homeless and she was all of invulnerable, he managed to. And I'd be willing to bet in his own brain, he believes he did a good thing for her. Right.

Like, because he did this, she was able to get braces and get out. And I think when you look at a lot of these victims and they tell Their story, the Epstein victims.

And they were in vulnerable positions, many of them, because our society had already failed them, you know, probably a hundred times. So that they were vulnerable and didn't recognize it and then were suddenly caught in Epstein's web.

And some of them will even say that they didn't realize they were trafficked until many years later when they looked back at it. Because as a society we lack the vocabulary for that. Like there, there isn't a word for, I mean, except trafficked.

There isn't a way for 16 year olds to say, you know, oh, he did make me feel good, he made me feel special, he made me feel wanted, but it was bad. Right. And so, you know, and then the, you've seen how hard it is to take him down now and he's literally dead and it's still hard to take him down.

So imagine how hard it is if you're a 16 year old. Like, who, who are you going to tell that isn't going to, then.

Liam Heffernan: 00:23:56

Yeah, I think, you know, arguments or any sort of argument against someone being a sort of victim of like coercion, which essentially is how kind of things like trafficking starts.

Alyssa Royse: 00:24:07

Coercion is also rape. Yeah, that's just. Yes, period.

Liam Heffernan: 00:24:10

Like, just, just, just say no. Like it's your choice.

You, you, you chose to follow Ghillam, you chose to go to their island, you know, and it's just, it's not the case because as you, as you mentioned, these are, these are young girls that are being exploited. It's an abuse of power.

And, and, and, and, and also, actually I should probably just point out that I've very rarely seen any coverage of, of, of Epstein that's involved black girls. And actually like the people that are held up as the poster victims here tend to be the white girls.

And I fail to believe that there are no black victims.

Alyssa Royse: 00:24:48

There are.

If you look, if you look at the whole, the whole victim panel, they, they, he was, perhaps some of his friends had a proclivity for blonde girls, but he seemed far less discriminate. But you're correct that media holds up the blonde girls because that's what American media sees as good and prized.

And so it makes it even harder if you have less social systemic power because you're not a blonde girl, to stand up and say this man is hurting me.

Liam Heffernan: 00:25:17

Yeah.

And I guess, I guess the reason why I'm sort of bringing this all up and why I just, I think fundamentally feel a little bit uncomfortable about the media coverage is, is just because it still feels like there is an element of pandering and editing the coverage to suit what's going to get the most eyeballs on your paper or your website. And I know that's part of it, but you're losing, you're losing some of the truth.

You're losing some of the perspective that really gets, gives the full picture of, of, of just how monstrous Epstein was.

Alyssa Royse: 00:25:53

Yeah, I think that, I think that is inarguably true. And I, did you see the PSA that the victims got together and they released two days ago now?

Liam Heffernan: 00:26:00

Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Royse: 00:26:01

And so I think, I'm hoping that that is just the beginning of us actually hearing from them, you know, and I, I, I hope that as a, you know, as a global society, not even just the United States, we are able to then look exactly at that more diverse picture because that was a more diverse collection of women.

Um, the thing that they all had in common is that at this point they are probably the bravest, strongest people walking in the United States of America today. And they, what they are doing should not be as hard as it is, but it is because they will literally be facing death threats.

They will be facing ostras. I'm so sorry, I can't speak ostracization. They will be, you know, their family will probably be learning things about them they didn't know.

And there will be people who say, well, why did you go? Why didn't you say no? Why? Whatever. And they are in this unconscionable position of having to do this.

But I hope that they can understand and that we can help them understand that they are literally changing the course of the world by doing this. You know, they are, they are giving us the vocabulary with which we can say, you know, this is what this looks like.

It looks like any number of things. It looks like, you know, lavish praise, it looks like love bombing and gifts.

It looks like exotic vacations that you can't say no once you're on an airplane. It's, it looks like all of these things and it is how American society does it.

Did you see the Larry Summers stuff that came out in the last couple days?

Liam Heffernan: 00:27:27

No, I haven't.

Alyssa Royse: 00:27:28

So Larry Summers, you know, Harvard professor, economist, he's been in various, he's been in the administration of various both political and Republican presidents as an economic advisor. And he's deep in the Epstein files.

So he, and he, there's a whole recorded like email transactions of him talking to Jeffrey Epstein basically about how he's going to get his, his TA to fuck him and how if, you know, she does on her career's over and that sort of, you know, various things like this.

And so as much as I want to see Trump held accountable, as much as I wish Epstein could still be held accountable, what I want people to learn from is this Larry Summers stuff is that this is what, what women, especially young women, are facing in school.

It's what they're facing in corporate America of these men who are in positions of power to advance their careers and who are really just trying to have sex with them or who they can only get ahead if you have sex with them. We saw it with Harvey Weinstein, we saw it with Matt Lauer, we're seeing it with Larry Summers. We probably saw it with Bill Clinton.

You know, we, at some point we're going to learn something from this, right?

Liam Heffernan: 00:28:33

You would hope, but, like, it's going to happen.

Alyssa Royse: 00:28:36

And, you know, which gets back to what I was saying earlier. Jeffrey Epstein's an absolute monster.

But it's this whole network of people who facilitate, facilitated it, who were doing this also in their own lives.

Liam Heffernan: 00:28:49

And it really does bring into question ultimately what this is going to change.

Because, you know, those, those power dynamics, not just in America, but, you know, in any sort of developed western country, they're, they're so fixed and they're built on wealth.

They're, they're built on these relationships that frankly, the people who are in the position to change that have far too much to lose from doing so. And even if anyone related to Epstein gets held to account, it feels like, is this just because of politics now?

People, you know, protecting themselves? And is anything actually going to materially change?

Alyssa Royse: 00:29:29

Oh, I have to believe, I have to believe that it is or I will just, I will just give up. I don't think I can get, you know, me well enough to know I won't be giving up. It has to change.

And I think, you know, I'm sure you don't follow Seattle politics, but like, we just elected a mayor who's super, super progressive. She's very inexperienced. I'm holding out loads of hope because we have shared values.

But one of the, one of the hits that people kept trying to put against her is like, she doesn't even own a car. She rents a 600 square foot apartment.

But it's because those systems of power that you were just talking about are so desperate to make sure that regular people never get power that they have to use powerlessness as a reason why they shouldn't be given power. And it's All a continuation of the same system.

Liam Heffernan: 00:30:17

Well, on that lovely bleak.

No, I feel like we should probably wrap this up, but I think it's been incredibly useful just for certainly anyone that's not in America right now, to get a bit of an understanding as to what's actually happening and how that mood is changing. Because it does feel like. It feels like things are shifting, and it feels like.

Alyssa Royse: 00:30:38

It feels very much like things are shifting, and it's shifting because of some really, really brave women who survived horrific attacks by our power structure.

Liam Heffernan: 00:30:47

Exactly. And I think that's important.

You know, ultimately, none of this would have happened if it weren't for the people that were fearless enough to speak out, even when nobody had their back.

Alyssa Royse: 00:30:57

No, nobody. They deserve the next Mount Rushmore should be these women.

Liam Heffernan: 00:31:02

Yeah.

Alyssa Royse: 00:31:03

Really, they, they can. They. They are coming closer to saving this country than any elected politician has before them.

Liam Heffernan: 00:31:11

Yeah, absolutely. So, Alyssa, thank you for sharing your experience and your insight with me and we'll get you back on the podcast again in future, I'm sure.

Alyssa Royse: 00:31:21

Anytime.

Liam Heffernan: 00:31:23

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