BONUS: Pushback Against Trump's Anti-Immigrant Agenda

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:16

Hello and welcome to this bonus episode of America A History Recorded straight after our recently published episode, how Has Immigration Shaped American Identity? I'm joined now by the guest from that episode, Will McCorkle from College of Charleston, to discuss this a little bit more.

Will, thank you so much for hanging on.

Will McCorkle: 00:00:35

Oh, thanks, Liam.

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:36

Yeah, really enjoyed our discussion in the main episode. And in fact, anyone listening to this, if, if you haven't yet listened, go and do that. It's just a couple of episodes down on the feed.

As always, I feel like we had to wrap it up so early and there's just so much to cover about immigration. But I just wanted to pick up just a couple of points and things that are probably on a lot of people's minds at the moment.

ally that he started doing in: 2016

Will McCorkle: 00:01:14

Yeah, you know, it's. And you know, I was talking about a little bit in the, the previous episode that I do a lot of work at the border.

And so I do see there is a lot of wall that has been created and some of that was even extended under Biden because the funding was already placed to do that. They.

It's kind of funny like that you can tell what the Trump wall was and the Biden wall, because the Trump wall is taller and the Biden walls shorter. Like, so this kind of symbolic thing, like they're both for restrictions but at different levels. It's. That has not even really come up this election.

Like, that was the big thing. We're going to get Mexico to build the wall and they're still doing it. But I think that, I don't know if that's even going to be an emphasis now.

I think for largely, like, it was so much work and it's largely symbolic.

Like if you did a full wall across the border, it's going to be more largely symbolic than anything because I remember one time Trump was just going ad lib and off, just saying whatever on the top of his head and he's like, there's no way you could get across this wall. He's like, I guess unless you had a ladder.

So the idea of like, you know, this is not necessarily going to stop cartels from, you know, even if you were able to somehow build it in every area, which would just be a massive thing to do in some of these desert areas, it's not going to necessarily change things that much. So I don't. It's almost like that's been forgotten in the national consciousness.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there's some, like, discussion about it, but it doesn't even seem like that's really a focus anymore.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:56

I mean, it's almost like he's just gone next level now. It's like, okay, the war isn't enough, so now it's.

Instead, there's going to be this very kind of active process of sending ICU officers in and, like, physically removing people in this. What he's promised to be this sort of mass deportation of millions of alleged illegal immigrants in the country.

I mean, is he even allowed to do that?

Will McCorkle: 00:03:22

You know, unfortunately, the way it's set up is that the executive branch with ICE does have a lot of that power to do that. It's kind of up to their discretion now.

They don't have enough agents to actually do, like, this mass deportation at this point, but they're trying to pass legislation to increase the amount of agents, the amount of space for people that have been detained or that are going to be deported. And so that could really ramp up. There are some protections that are there.

Like, if someone's been in the country for a certain amount of time and they can prove that it's going to be a hardship if they're deported, they can, they can have a legal case. So there are, like, legal aspects there.

Unfortunately, what we're seeing with the Trump administration, right, is like, they don't seem to care about the law or legal. You know, they're going after criminals, but they don't seem to care about the law.

And so, yeah, that does seem to be going to this next level of just going directly after immigrants, which is a lot scarier. Right.

For me, the wall was always kind of a distraction, like, almost like I'd rather they'd be focusing on that because it's like, yeah, it's a waste of money, it's a waste of taxpayer money, but it's just a symbolic thing that he's doing where when you're actually going after immigrant families and communities, like, that's really going to destroy lives.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:43

Yeah, I love that. I feel like it was such a deliberate move from Trump to sort of look at Biden's bit of the wall and say, okay, let's, let's, let's do that.

But taller. I want it taller. Whatever. Biden's done bigger. It's such a Trump thing today.

Will McCorkle: 00:04:59

Yeah, he's. Yeah. So there's, you Know, I think there still is expansion going on there, but.

And there's definitely the areas like, the more urban areas, like where I work down is in McAllen, Texas, across from Reynosa, Mexico. And there's definitely a lot of wall there, but when you go out further in some of the more rural areas, the wall's not been built yet.

Liam Heffernan: 00:05:22

Yeah.

So thinking about some of the other stuff that Trump is trying to get through, and I guess it's all connected to this idea of making sure America stays American in the minds of some people.

One of the other things he's promised to do is to try and revoke birthright citizenship, which, as I understand it, means if you were born in the US Then you are a US Citizen. A lot of people on the right seem to have some issues with this. Obviously, a lot of people on the left are strongly contesting this.

It just, I don't even know where to start with this. Is that ever going to happen?

Will McCorkle: 00:06:05

That one, I think, is going to be the hardest to actually implement, you know, because of the 14th Amendment, which basically says that those who are born in the US Are US Citizens. Now, you know, in history that was challenged. There was a time where it was like, that means that only white and black people can be citizens.

Like, that's how some people interpreted it. So there was like, if you were Asian, that didn't apply to you. And so like some there.

I remember there was a Japanese man who, like, tried to apply for citizenship and claim that he was white. Like, he's like, my skin is, you know, lighter skin than a lot of white people. So I'm white. And they're like, no, you're not.

But the courts basically decided over time. Right. That no, this applies to everybody. This is not just white and black people that can become citizens.

And so when Trump puts out an executive order, that he's just going to get rid of this.

I mean, it's really insulting to the whole constitutional process that a president thinks that he could just do an executive order and basically annul an amendment of the Constitution. So, I mean, a judge did already strike this down. I think it's a Reagan appointed judge. And it's just like there's.

This is one of the worst executive orders. You know, Like, I think he said, like, where was the lawyers when you wrote this up? Like, this is not. This has no basis.

So I think that's going to at least be on hold. It might get brought to the Supreme Court.

My hope is, I think the Supreme Court will probably rule against Trump, just because it's just legally, I guess, pretty clear cut that you need. They could change it. Right.

But they would have to have an amendment to the Constitution to do that, which would require two thirds of Congress, which is just not going to happen.

But at the same time, the, the courts, the Supreme Court in the United States, there's so, there's some members who are so corrupt and compromised that I'm sure Trump will get at least three or four votes for it.

He might not get the five to actually rule in his favor, but, you know, you know, just this Alito or Thomas Trump could pretty much do whatever he wants and they're going to rule in his favor. And so we'll see what the, the makeup of the court is. And I think that's, that's been, you know, one of the biggest issues overall. Right.

With these, in theory, we have these checks and balances in the United States, but if you have a court that is deeply compromised and then you have a legislator that is not willing to stand up to a leader in their own party, things start to break down. But I think that one is. My guess would be that's not going to happen.

But, you know, I, Yeah, it's hard to know, you know, things are happening at such a quick pace that things could shift in that direction.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:51

Yeah.

ust pointing out that Project: 2025

One of the parts of Project: 2025

Will McCorkle: 00:09:19

I mean, it's a, it's a really sad time to see. And I mean, the ironic thing is those who identify as conservative. Right. And smaller government are the ones proposing to basically create a king.

Right. It's this, this whole idea of, like, they're creating this person who would have this complete control and especially someone like Trump. Right.

Is going to use it for his own personal advantage. You can maybe see, like some president, the future, using it more judiciously or wisely. But, you know, Trump's going to just.

Do you already see this now, right. Where he's going after his political opponents? And it's, it's sad to see that people are, are cheering that on. Right.

If the people like, do you believe in democracy, the rule of law, the Constitution? A lot of times I I would see it almost as like the Constitution is kind of like the Bible for a lot of Americans.

Like, they beat their chest with it, but they don't actually know what it means or they don't actually believe in it.

We saw this with JD Vance, who supposedly is a new convert to Catholicism, but he went after the Catholic Church for speaking out against their executive orders and basically just said, they're all in it for the money. So I think that's a lot of ways people are in the US with the Constitution.

They'll say, I love the Constitution, but they're fine with just basically handing over the reins of power to the President, which is something that. The Constitution was one of the main things, that there would be checks and balances on the power of the President.

Liam Heffernan: 00:10:56

Yeah. Well, I think, as you, you know, to your point, it's.

I think that there's certainly some Americans out there who are 100% behind the constitution unless. Unless there's something in there that prevents them from doing what they want to do.

Will McCorkle: 00:11:10

Right, right. It's. I've heard it explained. Yeah. Like Jesus of the Constitution. To a lot of Americans, it's like a mascot for the team. Right.

It's not actually that they understand or believe what is written or said. It's just something that.

That's what it means to be America, like having an eagle and the flag, but it's not actually honoring the ideals or the values there.

Liam Heffernan: 00:11:34

I. I swear, some people just feel like the Constitution means that they're allowed to do whatever they want because they're an American.

Will McCorkle: 00:11:41

Right. No, it's. Yeah, the. What it means to have these rights. And I think we're at a challenging moment right.

Where it is, it's kind of exposed, I think, some even weaknesses in the whole checks and balances system, this assumption that this works.

But it's like maybe the people who created this never thought that the other branches would become so complicit in what the President does, that there is no checks and balances.

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:10

Yeah.

I mean, I feel like as well, the, the people who drafted the Constitution and sort of created that framework for it probably didn't anticipate that 250 years later, someone like Trump would be holding the keys to all of that, which, you know, creates a lot of problems.

Will McCorkle: 00:12:29

Right, right. Yeah. It's. So, yeah. Thinking about what happens when there is no restraint. I think that's part of it. It's just, I'm going to Trump.

I think this is what you go going back to birthright citizenship it's just like we're going to throw out as much as we can and see if anyone stops us.

And it's so, it's almost like the same thing with the tariffs right now, where it's just, this is not a legal thing to do to just put on these massive tariffs.

I mean, it's there for, like, emergency situations, not for some, like, it doesn't make any sense what, why they're doing it on, like, let's say Canada, just this, like, across the board tariff in the name of, like, some national emergency. But he's getting away with it. And so, you know, and maybe that will be challenged in the courts, but it's.

I think that's what he's just trying to do is throwing out as much as he can and knowing that some of it he's going to get away with just by the volume of what he's trying to do.

Liam Heffernan: 00:13:26

But again, you know, I think, you know, as you said about the wall, you know, I think Trump loves a good distraction. And all of this sort of reeks of just getting people to look one way while he does stuff over there. And he's, he's done it time and time again.

And I think it's just this desensitizing of Trump because he says something so ridiculous or tries to do something so ridiculous that actually, then when he does something that's actually really awful, it almost doesn't feel as bad because he, he hasn't been able to do the really stupid thing that he wanted to do. Right.

Will McCorkle: 00:14:01

Yeah. And so that's. I'm always, like, torn with that. It's like, is this, is this just distraction or is it like a plan?

Like, I mean, the whole thing of we're going to invade Panama, we're going to take over Greenland for me first, it's just like, this is just him, like, either. I mean, dementia, I don't know, whatever.

This is just like some crazy idea he came out with in the middle of the night and he's going to talk about this while he gets, you know, Elon Musk to basically take over the government. There is a part of me which I think he's more. There's less adults in the room now, and he's more unhinged than the first time.

And so even this stuff with, like, these tariffs on Mexico and Canada, like, he talked about this for a long time, but it just seems like now he's just, he's in this anger, revenge moment. And I still don't think he's probably gonna send troops down to Panama, but I wouldn't.

My confidence in saying he's not going to do that is a lot less than it would have been in the past. Just because I feel like at this point there's no, like, adults in the room that are holding him accountable, you know, at least the first term.

I think there's one point, you know, John Kelly and Rex Tillerson had a plan, like, if Trump was going to do something horrific and push the red button, they had a plan to like, basically constrain him and take him down. Right. Where I don't know if there's anyone that's there now that's like, not just subservient to him.

And I think that's a really dangerous spot to be in as a country.

Liam Heffernan: 00:15:34

Well, yeah, because now, of course, what he's, he's got is, is the people around him not to stop him from pushing the bomb, but to make sure that they're able to convince everyone else that he's right to push it. Right, right tactic.

Will McCorkle: 00:15:47

Yeah.

And it's just, you know, I, you know, I hope when, if things get to a certain point and I think immigration is going to be the central part with this, like, leave with a little message of hope.

The one thing I remember, the first term with Trump and this I always tell my students or people in advocacy, when Trump actually changed course on immigration was with the child separation policy.

Like, it was this horrific human rights abuse, which in and of itself he should have brought, then brought to the International Criminal Court for this because it was a massive human rights violation. But there was so much pushback in the nation. There was protests in cities across the nation, including like, very, you know, conservative cities.

midterm election year, was in: 2018

And I think enough people got to them and they're like, you know what? We know you're anti immigrant. We know you want to look tough, but, like, this is too far. Like, this is not. This doesn't look good.

And he actually backed off. Now he made some excuse that, like, he had to do it because of Obama's policy.

Like, he made some narrative that Obama was the one that was at fault for it, but he actually did back off. And again, I think that's going to be harder to do this term.

But I think that's one thing we have to do, is push really hard and that legislators eventually realize, like, they're going to defend Trump to the end. But if there's enough public pressure to start changing that narrative, it might shift a little bit. And I think we are seeing that already.

I knew this was going to happen. Right.

But with immigration, the media, as we mentioned before, did a, I think did a horrible job during the Biden administration because they would, they would just put a couple like images of people crossing the border. And usually it was the one time that there was the most crossings in the minds of Americans that lived hundreds of miles from the border.

We were under invasion and under attack.

And so it, the US Went from having the most, and this kind of goes to the article that I had written, like the US had the most pro immigration attitudes at the end of Trump's administrations because there was such a reaction against him to having some of the most anti immigrant attitudes. And part of it, there was a shift in immigration policy. Right. More immigrants came in, But I think 80% of it was the media coverage of it.

And now you can see the media kind of now they're all of a sudden giving a more pro immigrant thing of like, oh, what these people that you were demonizing crossing the border now that they're not allowed to cross. There are these stories about people like, you know, what's going to happen to these families about deportations.

There's actually a big, here in Charleston, there's a big rally today about, you know, stopping deportation. So I think there is a shift in tone. There's going to be a resistance and I hope it's not too little, too late.

But I do think you're, you're starting to see that pushback. And the more extreme he gets, the more, the more that pushback is going to be there.

The question is, are we going to still have that right to push back for right now we do. And I think while we have this window, people need to push as hard as they can to, to push back on a lot of those policies.

Liam Heffernan: 00:19:10

Absolutely. Well, we're going to wrap up there, but thank you so much for joining me, not just for this, but for the main episode as well.

It's been really great hearing your thoughts on all of this. And for anyone listening, if you haven't already, do check out the full episode.

And as always, there will be links in the show notes for everything that's been discussed, including to Will's articles and contact info as well. And as always, if you like what you hear, you can support the show from as little as one simple dollar. Again, all the info is in the show Notes.

Thank you all so much for listening. And thank you very much to Will McCorkle from College of Charleston. And goodbye.

Will McCorkle: 00:19:49

Thanks, Liam.