BONUS: The Abortion Paradox in America

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:00

Hello, and welcome to this bonus episode of A History Recorded straight after our recently published episode, why Is Abortion so Controversial in America? I'm joined now by the guests from that episode, Professor Rebecca Fraser and Reverend Caleb Lynes, to discuss this a little bit more.

Thank you both for hanging on.

Rebecca Fraser: 00:00:20

That's great.

Caleb Lines: 00:00:21

Absolutely.

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:23

We had such an interesting discussion on the main podcast and anyone that hasn't listened to that already do go check that out right now in the feed.

But I just want to touch on something maybe a bit more present day than what we were discussing, because we've spoken a lot about the impact of politics on all of the sort of discourse around abortion.

But in November, and actually on election Day, whilst everyone was going to the polls and electing Trump as the next president, there were also a lot of states that were having votes about reproductive rights. And actually seven of the nine states that went to the polls on that voted to enshrine reproductive rights.

So it seems like there's this weird contradiction here where you've got this MAGA administration getting in by an arguable landslide, and yet when people are voting specifically on reproductive rights, they're voting in favor of them. I can't make sense of this. Who wants to take this?

Rebecca Fraser: 00:01:28

I mean, I mean, I can say something about, you know, sort of. So what we saw with Dobbs was returning the decision around abortion to individual states legally.

What we got in terms of generationally is that grandmothers and sometimes mothers would have had rights around reproduction and bodily autonomy that their daughters would no longer have. And I think sometimes we forget this, that, you know, sort of, these are real, real life issues.

And, and while, while I think if you, if you can't pay your rent, you're not really worried about, you know, sort of abortion rights and, you know, reproductive rights. So, and, and the economy and, you know, sort of was, you know, sort of the massive, massive issue in the presidential elections.

But I think when states were voting on this, it wasn't just about, you know, being pro life or pro choice, it was also thinking about what your daughters would inherit and thinking, again, I've spoken so much about women's networks who have supported women supporting women throughout, you know, sort of the histories of the United States and this kind of collective resistance. And it's not, you know, sort of something that's like an insurrection. It's. It's just, you know, sort of gently guiding one through. Yeah.

And so, and it may be that, you know, sort of women supporting women means that, you know, they choose to have the child. And actually there's a whole network of, of women to, you know, sort of support that mother and that child as they grow up. And, you know, sort of.

And we see this today, especially with single moms. I mean, my, my sister was a, is, was a single mom, and she certainly had that network of other women.

But also generationally, as I said, I think it's really important to think about how these older women, so grandmothers and mothers sometimes, and depending on, you know, sort of when you had that child, when you had your daughters, you know, sort of thinking about what their daughter's choices might, might be and making that, you know, sort of a platform that was expansive rather than limiting.

Caleb Lines: 00:04:15

You know, Becky, I was thinking, too, and Liam, I was thinking about, about this. I live in a state where reproductive health is enshrined in the law. And I grew up in a very different part of the country in Missouri.

And so Missouri was one of the states that had a trigger law that went into effect whenever Roe was overturned. And so there were automatically restrictions. However, in November, when Trump was elected, Missouri also voted to protect reproductive health.

And so I think this is indicative of the kind of contradiction that exists around this issue in the United States. That study after study shows that the vast majority of people believe in reproductive health.

The variety of reproductive health, including access to abortions. It has primarily been the rhetoric, I believe, that has caused people to get out and vote for candidates who are anti reproductive health.

And so I think that this is something that we will continue to see, that there may be states that kind of walk that back a little bit, especially as people realize how that actually impacts their real life. As people see that, it also means they might not have access to contraception.

For instance, even though the Roman Catholic Church has traditionally been against any kind of contraception. It's something like 90% of Catholics support the use of contraception. Right.

So even whenever the religious narrative is, is anti reproductive health, it seems that people still by and large support it. And I would not be surprised if we see some ballot initiatives that continue to walk back some of those restrictions.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:14

And while I've got you on the podcast, Caleb, I have to ask you about life as an influencer, but know, obviously that's not your day job. You are, you're a reverend. You, you, you, you, you're a Christian and you have a congregation.

I just, I wonder because you're, I guess, considered quite outspoken on your social media channels, sort of the messages that you're putting out there, do you find that there can Sometimes be a bit of a conflict in your profile as an influencer versus your. Your day job as a reverend.

Caleb Lines: 00:06:50

No, most of the hate I get is hate online. My congregation not only loves it, they expect me to do this.

And I mean, full disclosure, I've been at the congregation that I'm currently serving now for almost 10 years. So the folks who are coming to this congregation are people who expect to hear this kind of stuff from me.

It is the kind of stuff that I've spent my entire ministry saying.

You know, I often said, you know, if I'm going to be in ministry and I'm not going to talk about the justice issues that Jesus seemed concerned about, then why even be in ministry? I don't know how to be in ministry in any other way.

And so certainly I am cognizant of the fact that not every church would let me say the kinds of things that I say at this church, but this church is supportive of it. They think it's what we ought to be doing. We share values online. A lot of folks who find my stuff are religious. Right.

Trolls who do not share the same perspective that I share.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:05

Yeah, you do see some people of. Of faith, usually these big kind of celebrity ministers that run these mega churches that let their fame get to their head a little bit.

And have you ever been tempted to cash in on that and get yourself a cheeky Lamborghini or something?

Caleb Lines: 00:08:28

I don't think that my type of clergy position is the kind that lends itself to that. I think when you're actively critiquing the economic system, that those are not the kind of positions that get celebrity endorsements.

Those are not the kind of positions where you get Donald Trump's wanting you to be on their side. And that's good.

I mean, part of what Christianity is supposed to be about, I think, is about speaking the truth and love to the principalities and the powers.

And I think where Christianity has become the most bastardized from what it was originally supposed to be, has been at the points where it has joined up with empire.

And I mean, there was a fundamental shift when Christianity went from being a persecuted religion by the Roman Empire to the religion of the Roman Empire.

And so I think that mainly what you have seen with Christianity in the United States is a conflation of Christianity with power, with colonialism, with white supremacy. And so I think that, no, you don't get a lot of offers to get endorsements and things like that whenever you're doing that.

But, I mean, that's the reason I'm in ministry is to live an authentic life like that. So, yeah, it's been fun, it's been a ride.

But my goal has been to show people that there is an alternative that I at least believe is more authentic to the life and teachings of Jesus than a lot of what we hear in the mainstream.

Liam Heffernan: 00:10:14

Yeah. And that's a, it's a, it's a great message and really admire what you do and how you put yourself out there, Caleb.

And it's been a real pleasure having you on the podcast talking to us about that. So thank you to you and of course, Becky, as ever, for joining us. I'm sure you'll be back.

And for anyone listening, there will be links to everything we've discussed in the show notes. And also do go check out the full episode. It's just a couple down on the feed.

And if you really like what you hear, you can support the show from as little as $1. So again, check out the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening and goodbye.