IN THE MAKING: New Term, Same Old Donald Trump

Liam: 00:00:03

With reaction and insights to the biggest stories and breaking news from the USA and a little bit of history thrown in.

Liam: 00:00:10

This is America, a history in the making.

Liam: 00:00:21

Hello and welcome to America, a history in the making.

Liam: 00:00:26

Happy New Year.

Liam: 00:00:27

Happy holidays.

Liam: 00:00:28

However you spent it, I hope you had a good one.

Liam: 00:00:30

And I'm delighted to be joined by someone who I think was probably glad to get a bit of a break post election, but I've dragged her back in.

Liam: 00:00:38

Emma Long, welcome.

Emma Long: 00:00:40

Hi, Liam.

Emma Long: 00:00:41

Thanks for having me back again.

Liam: 00:00:42

It's good to have you back on the show.

Liam: 00:00:44

Of course.

Liam: 00:00:45

And I guess before we jump into some of the hot topics in the US this week, a quick note.

Liam: 00:00:53

Anyone that might be affected by the wildfires that are happening in California as they're burning right now, as we're recording this podcast, obviously really, really horrible stuff to see just how bad it is.

Liam: 00:01:07

So if you are affected, stay safe and we hope you're all okay over there.

Liam: 00:01:11

But on the subject of putting out fires, it's another term, but same old story for Trump, right?

Emma Long: 00:01:19

Oh, yeah.

Emma Long: 00:01:20

We're beginning to see the Trump playbook come into effect, aren't we?

Emma Long: 00:01:24

It's.

Emma Long: 00:01:25

Yeah.

Emma Long: 00:01:26

of us who distinctly remember: 2016

Emma Long: 00:01:37

There's some familiar patterns emerging in some of the, some of the, the recent communications, should we say, from, from Trump and, and his team.

Liam: 00:01:51

Yeah.

Liam: 00:01:52

And before we dive into some of the more outrageous stuff that's hit the headlines this week, we should probably note the fact that January 6th has passed.

Liam: 00:02:03

It's passed without controversy.

Liam: 00:02:05

Trump was certified and there were no attempted coups.

Liam: 00:02:11

So success.

Emma Long: 00:02:12

Yes.

Emma Long: 00:02:13

Yay.

Emma Long: 00:02:14

Yeah.

Emma Long: 00:02:15

e were nervous about it after: 2021

Emma Long: 00:02:30

But also the fact that the Biden administration, having set out right from the start, from the result of the election, that they would provide the kind of transition to the incoming Trump administration that the outgoing Trump administration had not provided to, that's been very clear all the way through.

Emma Long: 00:02:51

And I don't think there was really ever any doubt that Kamala Harris would oversee the certification, that they would make sure that it ran smoothly.

Emma Long: 00:03:00

Congress had, after: 2021

Emma Long: 00:03:15

So it was much more a Kind of ceremonial type thing, a formality rather than anything that could be interrupted.

Emma Long: 00:03:25

So all of that went smoothly.

Emma Long: 00:03:27

I think lots of people breathed a sigh of relief that this was a sort of return to normality and the way that things should be done.

Liam: 00:03:37

Yeah.

Liam: 00:03:38

And it does say a lot about, you know, the stereotype that in some ways has proven to be true with regards to the difference between Democrats and, I would say, Republicans.

Liam: 00:03:50

But I think I'll marginalize that to just the MAGA Republicans that, you know, the Democrats, they lost, they would have hated losing to Donald Trump, but they lost and they accepted that.

Liam: 00:04:02

And because they were on the losing end, everything ran quite smoothly.

Liam: 00:04:07

I, I, I think if Trump had lost, I don't think we would have seen the same respect reciprocated, because it does feel very much like the MAGA crowd only accept a result when it's favorable to them.

Emma Long: 00:04:21

Yeah, there is the risk that that's the possibility, isn't there?

Emma Long: 00:04:25

And in some ways, I think there were people who probably breathed a sigh of relief that Trump did win back in November for exactly that reason.

Emma Long: 00:04:34

But, you know, it's important, regardless of whether that may well be the case, it's important that at least somebody is playing by the rules.

Emma Long: 00:04:42

Right.

Emma Long: 00:04:42

Those, those norms of government and the processes work and that they're shown to work and that people are upholding them is important, particularly when they've been challenged in the past, as they were four years ago, and as we probably suspect Trump and his team will challenge in the future.

Emma Long: 00:05:06

mp's approach right back from: 2015

Emma Long: 00:05:14

Right?

Liam: 00:05:15

Yeah.

Emma Long: 00:05:16

Supporters talk about him as a disruptor.

Emma Long: 00:05:19

Critics might use other terms that are probably not appropriate to use use here.

Emma Long: 00:05:25

But whether, whether you, you see it as a positive or a negative in terms of his approach, it has been about challenging the norms of government.

Emma Long: 00:05:33

And back in: 2016

Emma Long: 00:05:48

And actually what happened was he kept challenging them and actually has in some cases, I think, worn away some of those pillars so they're not as strong as they were.

Emma Long: 00:06:01

th back in: 2021

Emma Long: 00:06:16

I think MAGA supporters distrust of the mainstream media, for example.

Emma Long: 00:06:25

ut really didn't exist before: 2016

Emma Long: 00:06:34

And the speed with which that has gained traction and has, has gained some support, I think from amongst the left now as well as the, the right is both worrying and I think a symptom of actually just what impact Trump had.

Emma Long: 00:06:56

So the, this happening, the certification happening on January 6, that it just went as it should, that there was almost nothing to comment on is important given what the country is going to be facing, I think, for the next four years.

Liam: 00:07:11

Absolutely.

Liam: 00:07:12

And, you know, I think the landscape post Trump, even in Biden's administration, was markedly different from before Trump got into the White House.

Liam: 00:07:23

And I think that's only being exacerbated and lent into even more now that Trump is back in the White House.

Liam: 00:07:34

I mean, you see that you mentioned fake news.

Liam: 00:07:35

I mean, just a few days ago, Meta announced that they were going to be getting rid of their fact checking teams and kind of doing this almost, you know, musk x approach of just allowing the community to dictate, you know, the, the, the, the, the guidelines and, and to determine collectively what the truth is, which seems like a very dangerous approach, but it does kind of show that, you know, the.

Liam: 00:08:02

Trump's kind of getting his way, isn't he?

Emma Long: 00:08:05

Yeah, yeah.

Emma Long: 00:08:05

And I mean, it's interesting that Mark Zuckerberg has made quite clear that the removal of these fact checkers is happening only in the US at the moment and not in Europe and elsewhere in the world.

Emma Long: 00:08:21

And I think that's quite telling about trying to keep in with Trump and actually the fear that people have of what Trump might do if you alienate him.

Emma Long: 00:08:33

And that's deeply problematic in a democratic system, I think.

Liam: 00:08:40

Yeah.

Liam: 00:08:40

Well, on that note, talking of alienation and what Trump might do, he's made some fairly alarming comments, or certainly comments that have been taken into an alarming context by the media this week.

Liam: 00:09:03

And I'm just going to ask you straight.

Liam: 00:09:05

Let's, let's, let's deal with this.

Liam: 00:09:08

A Canada and Greenland is going to be the 51st and 52nd states.

Emma Long: 00:09:13

I very much doubt it.

Emma Long: 00:09:17

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

Emma Long: 00:09:21

It feels like this is, you know, as we just mentioned, the return of the Trump playbook from, from four years ago.

Emma Long: 00:09:30

Say something outlandish or at least refuse to rule out something that seems fairly acceptable and suddenly the media jump all over it as if it's the biggest story in the world.

Emma Long: 00:09:44

I have to say I'm, I'm somewhat disappointed to find both the American and actually the international media seemingly making the same mistake they made about Trump before, which is jumping on every tweet, every outlandish comment and turning it into a story.

Emma Long: 00:10:05

Right.

Emma Long: 00:10:05

We, we've talked about this, I think, in passing on the podcast, but certainly commentators have talked about this in the last four years, that ultimately the media, both the kind of the conservative media and actually the mainstream media, gave oxygen to many of Trump's most outlandish statements that would, had they just ignored them, just died away.

Emma Long: 00:10:29

Right.

Emma Long: 00:10:30

Even including those things that Trump had sort of thrown out there, either as a passing comment or as to test what the reaction would be or just to get attention.

Emma Long: 00:10:40

And if the media ignored those things and kind of either ignored them or laughed at them and just kind of said, well, of course this isn't going to happen, of course Canada is not going to become the 51st state of the United States.

Emma Long: 00:10:50

Its madness.

Emma Long: 00:10:51

And moved on.

Liam: 00:10:52

Yeah.

Emma Long: 00:10:53

These wouldn't have the weight that they do.

Emma Long: 00:10:58

So that the media is sort of doing Trump's job for him, I think.

Liam: 00:11:01

Yeah.

Liam: 00:11:02

And Trump, you know, even if his political competency is debated until the end of time, I think it's fair to say that he's a master with PR because, you know, Brudo resigns and then suddenly Trump's talking about Canada being a 51st state.

Liam: 00:11:22

You know, he's throwing around Greenland using all of this, you know, language that he knows is provocative, and he's saying it to turn heads in exactly the same way that he used the eating cats and dogs line during the debate, because he knew no one would then care or cover anything that Harris said, it would all be about that.

Liam: 00:11:44

And I feel like it's no coincidence that in a week where, you know, maybe heads will be turning towards Trudeau or some of the things happening in, in Europe and even to, to Jimmy Carter, which we'll touch on shortly.

Liam: 00:11:58

You know, Trump has to find a way to get everyone looking at him again.

Emma Long: 00:12:03

Yeah.

Emma Long: 00:12:03

And let's face it, the, the comparison between Carter and Trump is not a comparison that Trump is going to want.

Emma Long: 00:12:11

Right.

Emma Long: 00:12:11

That is not a positive comparison for, for him.

Emma Long: 00:12:16

So turning the story away from that or making the, making the focus on him about something other than that, I think it also, you know, Yes, I agree.

Emma Long: 00:12:27

I absolutely agree with you.

Emma Long: 00:12:28

I think that when historians look back at Trump, one of the things that they will unquestionably have to acknowledge is his absolute ability to use the media, to use social media to his own advantage, and the way in which he's sort of taken over the Republican Party and shifted it to the right.

Emma Long: 00:12:55

The way he has managed to kind of bring people with him and if not win over people who were skeptical, at least keep them quiet for fear of the retaliation.

Emma Long: 00:13:08

I think all of those things are going to be seen as core to Trump's success here.

Emma Long: 00:13:15

And again, you can like that or loathe that, but I think you have to recognize that that is what he is very successful at doing.

Emma Long: 00:13:22

And Democrats and critics of Trump need to learn that lesson again quickly.

Emma Long: 00:13:30

Otherwise, I think they're going to fall into the same trap that they did eight years ago, four years ago of dancing to his tune and allowing him to set the agenda in ways that they don't necessarily need to do.

Liam: 00:13:48

Yeah, I agree.

Liam: 00:13:50

And actually, I wonder how the next four years are going to play out for J.D.

Liam: 00:13:54

vance because I noticed in the speech where he was talking about, you know, Canada and Greenland and Panama Canal and all that on the podium, the lectern, sorry, he still had the Trump, Vance kind of campaign sort of artwork at the front of it.

Liam: 00:14:14

I think we all know Vance is probably going to play a slightly more back office kind of role because Trump is not a guy who likes to work in a team.

Liam: 00:14:26

And I just, I wonder at what point Vance realizes that he's just a kind of supporting player here.

Emma Long: 00:14:34

I mean, you would think Vance would have to know that already, right?

Emma Long: 00:14:37

I mean, that's, that's no surprise, I suspect, I mean, I can't not an expert on, on this, but I suspect what he is thinking is, you know, he can work quietly behind the scenes with Trump because that's all anybody else is going to do in the Trump universe.

Emma Long: 00:14:58

Try not to alienate anybody and then ride Trump's coattails right into the White House in, in four years time.

Emma Long: 00:15:05

I can only assume that that is what he was, what he was thinking.

Emma Long: 00:15:10

I mean, it didn't work out for Mike Pence, but Pence is a slightly different character.

Emma Long: 00:15:16

we had the disruption of the: 2020

Emma Long: 00:15:31

So he can't lose the next election.

Emma Long: 00:15:34

So his, you know, his supported candidates can, but he can't.

Emma Long: 00:15:40

And I think that is, that that's going to make a difference.

Liam: 00:15:43

I agree.

Liam: 00:15:44

And I think, you know, eight years ago it was about balancing the ticket and this year it was really clear it was about succession planning you know, what happens in four years time.

Liam: 00:15:54

But considering that, you know, I think it's quite telling that Trump is still sending Don Jr.

Liam: 00:16:01

And using his family for these visits.

Liam: 00:16:04

I mean, you know, Don Jr.

Liam: 00:16:05

Got on the plane and went to Greenland.

Liam: 00:16:07

Surely that's something that Vance could or maybe should have done as the Vice President elect.

Emma Long: 00:16:13

Right, yes, of course.

Emma Long: 00:16:15

The information coming from their camp is, well, this is actually, this was actually a private visit.

Emma Long: 00:16:20

This wasn't a kind of state related visit.

Emma Long: 00:16:22

There wasn't any of those kinds of things going on.

Emma Long: 00:16:24

Which of course is, is that's, but that's a harder argument to make if you send the Vice President elect.

Emma Long: 00:16:30

Right.

Emma Long: 00:16:31

So there's an element of deniability going on with, with that process, I guess.

Emma Long: 00:16:38

But yeah, I mean that those are the kinds of things that you would expect perhaps a Vice president to be doing.

Emma Long: 00:16:46

Now, whether Vance wants to be associated with attempts to invade somebody else's sovereign territory, whether that's Greenland or of course the talk about the Panama Canal.

Liam: 00:16:58

Yeah.

Emma Long: 00:16:59

As well, which is coming at an interesting time.

Emma Long: 00:17:03

Right.

Emma Long: 00:17:03

Because obviously with we're seeing the, the memorials and the, the funeral services for, for Jimmy Carter and of course the return of the Panama Canal began the process of that, that process began under Carter.

Emma Long: 00:17:17

So there's an, there's a sort of interesting parallel going on there at the moment.

Emma Long: 00:17:23

But let's, we should be clear about the fact that, you know, Trump is effectively talking about trying to influence somebody's sovereign territory now he's saying, you know, he refusing to, to rule out various things but military or economic power.

Emma Long: 00:17:40

And I think, you know, we should really be looking closely at what the implication of that without necessarily giving more fuel to the possibility, the underlying assumptions of that, that America has the right to do these things or even to threaten to do these things, speaks to somebody who, yeah, has some challenging ideas, dangerous ideas maybe about what America's power in the rest of the world should be.

Emma Long: 00:18:19

And I think thinking about that, we've also seen here in the the UK of course, the response to Elon Musk's comments about, about hearings on child sexual abuse cases here in the UK and the, the implication or the consequences that those comments have had for British politics and British politicians.

Emma Long: 00:18:43

And suddenly you've got someone who hasn't been elected, but is part of the administration causing absolute uproar in UK politics over something that really isn't any of his business.

Emma Long: 00:18:57

Comments that had an international politician made about American politics would have been shot down as being outside of their realm.

Emma Long: 00:19:07

Of interest.

Emma Long: 00:19:08

Right.

Emma Long: 00:19:09

Or their scope of authority, but doing this without seemingly any kind of consequence for that.

Emma Long: 00:19:17

And I think that's also potentially worrying not just for the uk which is where the attention is at the moment, but, but internationally.

Emma Long: 00:19:26

Where else does Elon Musk feel like he's going to pick on next?

Emma Long: 00:19:30

And what kind of disruption can, though, might those kinds of comments cause in, in nations where, you know, there is political turmoil?

Emma Long: 00:19:44

And I mean, I'm not excluding the UK and Europe from, from that.

Emma Long: 00:19:47

We all know that.

Emma Long: 00:19:48

You know, you look at Canada and, and Trudeau, you look at the problems that Macron has in France at the, the moment we talk about, we've talked in passing on the podcast about the rise of sort of right wing populism across Europe and other countries.

Emma Long: 00:20:08

Right?

Emma Long: 00:20:10

There, there are some, these are potentially tinderboxes.

Emma Long: 00:20:16

Right.

Emma Long: 00:20:16

And Elon Musk throwing a match like that runs real potential risks.

Liam: 00:20:24

It does.

Liam: 00:20:24

And I, I, I'm just wondering if, you know, not, I'm thinking now even more, you know, not just about what Musk is doing, you know, on social media to sort of fan the flames, but the fact that he's reportedly lining up a sizable donation to Reform uk.

Liam: 00:20:47

I'm not aware of another member ever of a presidential administration that has made political donations to other parties in other countries.

Liam: 00:21:03

Maybe they have, but I think this is quite a high profile and surely a bit of a diplomatic minefield if Musk does start making donations to, to, you know, other political parties potentially.

Emma Long: 00:21:17

I mean, I wouldn't like to say it's never happened.

Emma Long: 00:21:19

I wouldn't, you know, my, my knowledge on, on that is sketchy and maybe listeners will be able to, to tell us more about whether that, whether there are examples of that.

Emma Long: 00:21:28

But I mean, think about the, the brief admittedly uproar that was caused when there was a thought during the campaign that labor supporter, you know, Labour supporters and activists from the UK had gone out to work for Harris's campaign and the, the suggestion that maybe there labor organization behind the scenes, which obviously was quickly denied and seemed, seemed unlikely.

Emma Long: 00:21:53

This is, you know, this is a whole different scale.

Emma Long: 00:21:55

You know, this is talk of financial support.

Emma Long: 00:21:57

But I think suddenly realize that this is an interesting start to the new year where we're getting really gloomy really fast.

Emma Long: 00:22:07

But it does speak to the idea that if you have a lot of money, you don't have the same restrictions that everybody else has on you.

Emma Long: 00:22:21

And that Musk and potentially others like him think that they are untouchable because of the amount of money that they've got.

Emma Long: 00:22:31

And his link with Trump gives him political power and potentially the, the reinforcement of state power.

Emma Long: 00:22:40

Right.

Emma Long: 00:22:40

And given that the US remains one of the, the biggest economies and military powers in the the world, that's not insignificant.

Emma Long: 00:22:49

So I think that's potentially worrying.

Emma Long: 00:22:52

Although, of course, given what we were talking about earlier with, with Meta and you know, the way in which X now works with communities, the community feeding in and saying that the, this is inaccurate.

Emma Long: 00:23:02

This is like there is room for kind of grassroots movement, right.

Emma Long: 00:23:07

And a kind of grassroots opposition to that and push back.

Emma Long: 00:23:13

But people are going to have to get organized to, to do that.

Emma Long: 00:23:17

And traditionally the left has not been as good at doing things like that as the political right.

Liam: 00:23:24

Yeah, yeah, it's a fair point.

Liam: 00:23:27

And I, I think what's so interesting about all of this and you talk about, you know, the sort of, the different rule set that applies to people with money.

Liam: 00:23:36

I think Musk is not really any different to the likes of Rupert Murdoch.

Liam: 00:23:42

It's just a slightly different landscape that they're playing in.

Liam: 00:23:45

And I think what's really noticeable since Musk's intervention, particularly in the uk, and I'm making it about the UK because that's where we're from.

Liam: 00:23:56

When you look at the bookie's favorite to be the next Prime Minister, you know, I know we've only not long had an election in the uk, but you know, when we look at now the odds of who's most likely to succeed Keir Starmer, it's Nigel Farage, leader of Reform uk, who would be the beneficiary of a nice cash donation from Musk.

Liam: 00:24:16

You know, so the, the impact of Musk's, you know, interference and social media posts can't really be understated.

Emma Long: 00:24:24

No, absolutely not.

Emma Long: 00:24:27

And the fact that X is worldwide gives him a platform in many different countries.

Emma Long: 00:24:38

Like I said, you know, the, the, the recent attacks on Keir Starmer and Jess Phillips here in the the UK over this particular, one particular issue, which were clearly egregiously inaccurate, but were designed to stoke a particular issue.

Emma Long: 00:24:57

You know, we're gonna, I, you know, there's nothing to stop him doing that.

Emma Long: 00:25:01

Using advisors in other countries to work out what the issue is that's going to inflame things there.

Emma Long: 00:25:07

So again, I think it's not just.

Emma Long: 00:25:11

We talked during the election, right.

Emma Long: 00:25:13

During, with apologies to listeners who are probably fed up with hearing us, me particularly talking about the election.

Emma Long: 00:25:21

You know, we talked about the fact that the, the result of the US election would have, would be felt around the world.

Emma Long: 00:25:29

Right.

Emma Long: 00:25:29

It's not just one country.

Emma Long: 00:25:31

It's significant and we are seeing that.

Emma Long: 00:25:34

And that is being amplified by not just Elon Musk and X, but that's the particular example of the way in which social media can expand the impact of people with that kind of platform.

Liam: 00:25:50

Absolutely.

Liam: 00:25:51

And just to provide some context actually to any US listeners out there who don't really understand sort of how prominent Nigel Farage may be in the uk.

Liam: 00:26:05

Two years ago, the chances of Nigel Farage being touted and seen as a favorite to become the next Prime Minister were probably about as big as Jill Stein winning the next presidential election in the U.S.

Liam: 00:26:21

i mean, and I don't think that's an exaggeration.

Liam: 00:26:24

Nigel Farage had never been an elected member of the UK Parliament before.

Liam: 00:26:29

His parties have very rarely ever won a seat in government.

Liam: 00:26:35

And now this is a guy that is being held up because I think of the influence of, you know, right wing politics in, in the us he's being held up as a potential next Prime Minister.

Liam: 00:26:49

That's, it's just madness.

Emma Long: 00:26:52

Yeah.

Emma Long: 00:26:52

And I think we, we have to be aware of, you know, the, the risk of self fulfilling prophecies.

Emma Long: 00:26:58

Right.

Emma Long: 00:26:58

That we start talking about it and people get used to the idea and therefore it comes about.

Emma Long: 00:27:02

eferendum process back in, in: 2016

Emma Long: 00:27:27

You know, he kind of lost, lost attention in a way.

Emma Long: 00:27:32

Right.

Emma Long: 00:27:33

The, the party, the, the part, the reason that the party had sort of come together sort of not disintegrated.

Emma Long: 00:27:40

Some of those issues have never gone away.

Emma Long: 00:27:42

They're part of what's driving the Reform Party again.

Emma Long: 00:27:45

But the, the kind of, the focus issue of Brexit, once the referendum happened kind of, it meant that the attention sort of disappeared and focused on, on other issues and he became again a little, perhaps a little bit of a figure of fun, slightly caricatured and so on.

Emma Long: 00:28:02

And then he's kind of come back with Reform Party which I think he's, he's sort of trying to style in this kind of right wing populist issue which is drawing on some of the same issues that are, are that, that underpin some of the Brexit debates like immigration, like sort of control of the, the borders.

Emma Long: 00:28:22

But those Kinds of issues are now also being talked about not just in the US but actually around the world.

Emma Long: 00:28:30

Right.

Emma Long: 00:28:30

In right wing populist movements.

Emma Long: 00:28:34

The, this issue of immigration and border security and so on is, is becoming a bigger and bigger issue which I think we should be concerned about because it's a, it's a process.

Emma Long: 00:28:47

Right.

Emma Long: 00:28:47

Of, of othering people from.

Emma Long: 00:28:49

Not here.

Emma Long: 00:28:50

Right.

Emma Long: 00:28:51

And, and the kind of the, the othering of the, the outsider, which, you know, has historically never ended well.

Emma Long: 00:28:59

Right.

Emma Long: 00:29:00

But he's kind of turning some of those issues back into this political moment.

Emma Long: 00:29:05

And there was so much expectation on the Labour government when the, the election happened last year after so many years of Conservative rule, the disillusion with the Conservatives, the hope for the Labour Party, the kind of sense, in a weird way, in echoes of obama, right.

Emma Long: 00:29:24

In: 2008

Emma Long: 00:29:35

And this kind of immediate sort of sense that, you know, we like our politics to be quick.

Emma Long: 00:29:43

Right.

Emma Long: 00:29:43

So why hasn't there been a quick fix to all of these problems?

Emma Long: 00:29:46

Well, actually these problems can't be fixed quickly.

Emma Long: 00:29:50

But that, that sense of expectation has, has led to disillusionment with the current government along with some decisions that I think supporters would say maybe haven't been good ones.

Emma Long: 00:30:04

And you know, suddenly Farages people are like back in reform.

Emma Long: 00:30:09

I mean, I've talked to some people over the Christmas vacation, right.

Emma Long: 00:30:14

Who voted for labor really for, in many cases for the first time in this election and are now saying, I wish I hadn't.

Emma Long: 00:30:23

Next time I will vote reform.

Emma Long: 00:30:25

Which led to a whole discussion about why they shouldn't.

Emma Long: 00:30:30

But you know, I think.

Emma Long: 00:30:34

But it's symptomatic, right.

Emma Long: 00:30:35

Of a broader theme at the moment.

Emma Long: 00:30:38

But I mean, from the UK point of view, I think we've got four and a half years of this Parliament left to go.

Emma Long: 00:30:45

I think Labour are probably banking on the idea, right.

Emma Long: 00:30:48

That the sort of the positive effects of decisions that they're making will come through by the time the election comes around and that hopefully those will have an impact whether, you know, if they're wrong, then, yeah, we might be talking about Prime Minister Farage, which.

Emma Long: 00:31:05

Yeah, let's just leave that one there for now.

Liam: 00:31:08

Exactly.

Liam: 00:31:08

I'm sure there's going to be far more to talk about in that regard if Musk continues to, to, to get involved in UK politics and sport.

Liam: 00:31:18

Apparently the rumors are he's going to buy Liverpool football Club now.

Emma Long: 00:31:22

Oh, God.

Emma Long: 00:31:23

Okay.

Emma Long: 00:31:23

Well, there's a way to make a lot of people hate you immediately.

Emma Long: 00:31:26

Right.

Emma Long: 00:31:26

Is kind of, you know, get involved in, seem to be interfering in, interfering in sport.

Emma Long: 00:31:31

I mean, there is a risk, of course, with, with both Trump and Musk and others like them that eventually they overplay their hand.

Emma Long: 00:31:39

Yeah, right.

Emma Long: 00:31:39

That they, they push it too far and that there's a, there's a backlash.

Emma Long: 00:31:44

But yeah, no doubt we'll be talking about it for a while, so I'm sure we will.

Liam: 00:31:51

And I guess onto slightly more, maybe positive but perhaps more somber notes to wrap up today's episode.

Liam: 00:32:01

Of course, Jimmy Carter passed away a couple of weeks ago, and as you said, I'm sure there's, there's going to be no end of comparisons between him and Donald Trump, who are just probably the most wildly different types of president.

Liam: 00:32:17

But you know, unfortunately, we lost Jimmy Carter the longest or so the, the oldest ever living president.

Liam: 00:32:25

His state funeral.

Liam: 00:32:28

There's a whole series of events happening in Washington and in Plains, Georgia to sort of celebrate him and commemorate him this week.

Liam: 00:32:39

I mean, I feel like Carter is one of those presidents whose legacy only improves over time.

Emma Long: 00:32:48

Yeah, I think so.

Emma Long: 00:32:49

opular when he left office in: 1981

Emma Long: 00:32:56

And of course, in some ways he was overshadowed by Reagan, who came afterwards, another sort of somewhat flamboyant president in, in his own way, I'm not necessarily comparing him to Trump, but he had a charisma and a way of, of managing the, the public right in a way that I think overshadowed Carter for, for many years.

Emma Long: 00:33:20

It's interesting, isn't it, that Carter's legacy as president is mixed, I think it's fair to, to say.

Emma Long: 00:33:27

And as somebody who has spent a lot of time reminding students that actually Carter was important.

Emma Long: 00:33:34

And in big sort of survey Introduction to American History courses, Carter tends to get overlooked a little bit.

Emma Long: 00:33:43

his, his death at the end of: 2024

Emma Long: 00:33:55

So there were important positives, but it was kind of mixed with an awful lot of negatives, some of which were not his fault.

Emma Long: 00:34:02

You know, he inherited economy with massive inflation, something I suspect President Biden is currently somewhat sympathetic to.

Emma Long: 00:34:13

You know, where you inherit those, those problems, but they are somewhat outside of your control because they're, they're international.

Emma Long: 00:34:20

The Iranian hostage crisis, of course, really kind of did for any attempt at re election for Carter, as with all presidents, there's always a historical revision, right?

Emma Long: 00:34:34

Whether you leave on a high and everybody says, oh yeah, you know, one of the greatest presidents ever.

Emma Long: 00:34:40

And then the historical revision comes who point out that you were just actually not a great president and here's all the mistakes that they made.

Emma Long: 00:34:47

And then eventually that cycles back round and people reassess or you leave on a low, which is really what Carter did.

Emma Long: 00:34:54

And historians, ultimately, the first kind of rethink is to think more positively.

Emma Long: 00:34:59

But the interesting thing with Carter, of course, is that he had such a, he had such a short presidency and such a long life afterwards.

Emma Long: 00:35:08

And much, I think, of his, his legacy is linked to what he did after he became president.

Emma Long: 00:35:15

The way in which he used kind of the power that comes with being a former president and leveraged that into things that have had both national and international benefits through the, the Carter Foundation.

Emma Long: 00:35:33

You know, this seemingly this sort of genuine belief motivated by his faith that your, your job is to do as much good for as long as you can, where you can.

Emma Long: 00:35:46

And he, he genuinely.

Emma Long: 00:35:47

And his wife, Rosalind Carter as well, who of course died a year ago, you know, that they genuinely seem to have been people who lived their faith in ways that lots of people talk about but don't necessarily do.

Emma Long: 00:36:04

I think a lot of the reassessment of Carter's legacy has been this kind of combination of both him as president and what he did afterwards, whether that's in the US with Habitat for Humanity, for example, which is the, the charity which builds homes for.

Emma Long: 00:36:22

Low cost homes for, for people where Carter would turn up and would be hauling wood and hammering nails and, you know, literally getting his hands dirty with that too, you know, with the Carter foundation overseeing elections and health initiatives around the world.

Emma Long: 00:36:40

So he was somebody who really was kind of hands on, lived that, you know, his words and his deeds kind of fit together, I think, and that that's increasingly rare amongst those who are high profile, should we say?

Emma Long: 00:36:57

I think there are a lot of people, ordinary people in their everyday, everyday lives who are doing the same thing.

Emma Long: 00:37:04

We see it less, I think, in, in people who are high profile.

Emma Long: 00:37:08

And I think he stood out for, for that.

Emma Long: 00:37:11

And whatever his reputation, I think as, as president, that that's always going to change.

Emma Long: 00:37:18

Right.

Emma Long: 00:37:19

The point, the nature of history, is that the generation that comes after tends to disagree with the one that came before.

Emma Long: 00:37:26

It's how we keep our jobs.

Emma Long: 00:37:27

It's just disagreeing or finding new ways.

Emma Long: 00:37:31

But I think the impact that he and Rosalynn Carter had after they left The White House is I think probably far less open to revisionism then.

Liam: 00:37:46

Absolutely.

Liam: 00:37:47

And I think just a good person, someone perhaps, arguably was too kind to be an effective politician.

Emma Long: 00:37:58

Yeah, perhaps that's a damning indictment of modern politics, isn't.

Emma Long: 00:38:03

I think it is in an era where we are very cynical about politicians and what politics is and what those who represent us do.

Emma Long: 00:38:18

Carter is somebody who sort of speaks back to that earlier era of public service of sort of wanting to, to get into this for the, the right reasons.

Emma Long: 00:38:35

Not necessarily.

Emma Long: 00:38:36

And that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to agree with the decisions.

Emma Long: 00:38:40

You can disagree with that, but sort of that idea of, of trying to improve things and wanting to, to make things better and you can say you can disagree with whether you think he, he did or not.

Emma Long: 00:38:53

But I, I think it's much harder to sort of challenge the motivation there.

Emma Long: 00:39:01

Whereas I think we are much more skeptical today.

Emma Long: 00:39:04

Right.

Emma Long: 00:39:04

About the, the motivation for our politicians and that when they say I want to do this because we're, we're much more likely to be immediately suspect of that.

Emma Long: 00:39:15

So I think it would be nice to think that the coverage of Carter might make people think more about what we expect of our politicians and to expect more and to hold them to account.

Emma Long: 00:39:28

I'm not sure whether that's going to be the effect.

Liam: 00:39:34

No, maybe not.

Liam: 00:39:36

Time will tell on that front, but a big loss nonetheless.

Liam: 00:39:41

And I'll try and post in the show notes a list of some of the events and things that will be televised if anyone does want to follow along as America kind of mourns Jimmy Carter.

Emma Long: 00:39:56

And I think just as a, to reinforce to listeners.

Emma Long: 00:40:01

Right.

Emma Long: 00:40:01

Just Carter's important despite the fact that he was a one term president and despite the, the fact that his Presidency ended what, 40 something odd years ago.

Emma Long: 00:40:13

Right.

Emma Long: 00:40:14

Understanding some of the things that Carter did and didn't do in some cases is important for understanding what comes afterwards and sort of recognizing the life that he lived I think is always worth looking into.

Emma Long: 00:40:36

He seems to have been a genuinely decent human being and we should, we should always applaud when we find them.

Liam: 00:40:45

Absolutely.

Liam: 00:40:46

Especially when you find them in politics.

Emma Long: 00:40:48

Especially.

Emma Long: 00:40:49

So.

Emma Long: 00:40:49

Yeah.

Liam: 00:40:51

Emma, thank you for joining me for this.

Liam: 00:40:54

I'm sure this is just the star of four years that will, that will be exciting, controversial and certainly give us no end of talking points as Trump lives out his final term in the White House and obviously the inauguration happening next week certainly for the date that this episode goes out.

Liam: 00:41:17

So anyone that's interested will be able to watch that on the news, I'm sure.

Liam: 00:41:22

And then we are, we are, we are in the Trump second term who just thought we'd get there, but there we are.

Liam: 00:41:28

We are.

Liam: 00:41:29

Emma, do remind people who do want to connect with you outside of this podcast where they can do that.

Emma Long: 00:41:36

Sure.

Emma Long: 00:41:36

As regular listeners will know, I issue all forms of social media which should not perhaps come as a surprise given what we were just talking about.

Emma Long: 00:41:44

So the best way to get in touch with me is to search for me via uea, the University of East Anglia, and you can find my email address there.

Liam: 00:41:52

Wonderful.

Liam: 00:41:53

Thanks as always.

Liam: 00:41:54

And if anyone cares to connect with me, you can on blue sky and LinkedIn and I'm loitering somewhere on Twitter, but I never really use that anymore.

Liam: 00:42:04

Thank you for listening to the podcast and we'll be back every Tuesday with brand new main episodes and if you do want to support the show, you can do from as little as £1.

Liam: 00:42:14

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Liam: 00:42:16

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Liam: 00:42:20

So please do that if you can spare a few pennies.

Liam: 00:42:23

Thanks as always for listening and goodbye.

Liam: 00:42:30

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Liam: 00:42:34

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Liam: 00:42:43

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Liam: 00:42:47

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Liam: 00:42:50

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Liam: 00:42:55

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Liam: 00:43:01

Thank you so much for listening and goodbye.