What Does the Vice President Actually Do?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:17

This week, as J.D.

vance prepares to follow Donald Trump into the White House for the next four years, I want to shine a light on the most high profile understudy in the world. The Vice Presidency is often criticised and ridiculed by many, including those who have held the office. But how much power do they really wield?

In this episode, I ask, what does the Vice President actually do? Welcome to America, a history podcast.

I'm Liam Heffernan and every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places and the events that make the USA what it is today.

To discuss this, I am joined by a US politics lecturer from University College Cork and host of the excellent podcast A Chicken in Every Pot, which we'll link to in the show notes. Her monograph, co authored with Alex Wadden, entitled Obama v The Politics of Presidential Legacy and Rollback, is available right now.

en, is due for publication in: 2025

Clodagh Harrington: 00:01:36

Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:39

Yeah, I mean, your voice may be familiar to some because you, you joined us in the run up to the election for an in the making episode and I mean, yeah, things have changed since, right?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:01:49

Yeah, Seems like quite some time ago. Yeah, this, this, this could have been a very different conversation. It could have been one where we talked about, you know, a lot of firsts.

Obviously that's, that's not how it rolls and that's democracy for you.

But I still think, yeah, the Vice presidency is, it's really worth, it's worth attention and note and conversation and, you know, historically it hasn't been held in the highest regard, let's put it that way, and not least by individuals who've actually held the office themselves, which I always think is particularly amusing. But, yeah, it's a really, really important role.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:27

Yeah.

And it's funny, isn't it, when you talk about that, because, you know, Joe Biden himself when he was veeped to Obama, the memes that dominated Twitter and social media at the time of like, Joe being this sort of slightly bumbly kind of assistant to Obama, and yet he managed to shake that off and win the presidency still. So, you know, there's, there's something in that, I guess.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:02:48

Oh, absolutely.

And I mean, it's probably, I mean, it would be simplistic to say that, you know, everybody who enters as a vice president wants and would end up as a president. Of course, we know that that doesn't always happen and that it's not even always desirable, but Certainly.

I mean, when you're in there, you know, you've got the kind of the ultimate insider take on things. I think, for me, and this is just a kind of a broad observation because obviously there's plenty of ways in which you could contradict it.

But it does seem to me that there are kind of two different characters, like the character of somebody who would want to be president and the character of somebody who would want to be vice president. It's not necessarily the same to me. Like, it's a bit. It's a bit Ronald Reagan and George H.W. bush.

You know, one is so obviously the shining star and the other is more the kind of the, you know, solid, reliable, dependent, consistent guy who isn't necessarily shining star material. So you have all of these kind of interesting dynamics.

And then of course, the other side of it is that the, the second in command is just bursting to get in there, you know, by any means necessary.

Liam Heffernan: 00:03:56

Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? One that's been almost mythicized and blown out of proportion and caricatured throughout, you know, popular media over the years.

So, you know, I guess let's, let's bring it back to basics for a second. What's the official, like, job description of the Vice President?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:04:12

Okay, so I mean, you see in the literature, you know, you know, with the kind of. The shorthand for the president is potus, as most people will know, and in the vice President's case, it's V. Potus.

And there, I mean, it's the highest, or this is second highest ranking office in the executive branch. So I mean, that, that's pretty phenomenal. Kudos in itself in terms of what they do. I mean, just to like a. Just a couple of sentences on the kind of.

The origins, I suppose might be useful.

of, you know, Philadelphia in: 1787

The first one is the one that everybody knows. It's the caricature, one of being the heartbeat away from perhaps the job that you actually want. So there's that.

And historically I think it would literally have been that because, you know, if you kind of, if you came second, if you like, in the race, then, you know, you got the Vice President's job, which to me is sort of like the worst of all worlds because you really are going to be waiting to have your heartbeat moment and step up to the post.

So that's one part of it and then the second part of it which is perhaps less dramatic but more exciting or sorry, more, more, more satisfying I suppose is how we might put it is that the, the Vice president would serve as the Senate's presiding officer. So he or she is the Vice President. The Vice President is the President of the Senate.

So that is something that has been very important and consequential obviously perhaps more so in some administrations than other.

But they're the two kind of hats that the Vice President would wear and I suppose then the other thing, and we see this played out to varying extents in modern times anyway, the role of the Vice President will be shaped perhaps a bit to their strengths, depending on what they might actually be.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:19

Yeah.

And actually I think it's important to just clarify the, the importance of their role in the Senate as you, as you pointed out, because if I'm not mistaken, you know, when, when the Senate is quite closely divided between the two parties, the, the Vice President has an enormous amount of power there because they're the deciding vote when, when anything is, is tied. Right?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:06:42

That's right. So they, they literally have the, the, the, they can cast the deciding vote in the chamber.

And that, I mean that, that, that's a massively significant responsibility.

I mean I think that there are two, I think the two presidents that have had the most tie breaking votes actually both just by coincidence that, the same amount.

n the Senate back in the late: 1820

And then also by sort of interesting coincidence, Kamala Harris as of as of this month, I didn't actually look this morning, but as of this month she's also had 31 tie breaking votes in the Senate.

So these can be things like it might be approval of an executive appointment or a judicial appointment or then of course the, the more kind of conventional legislative stuff as well. So that can really, these can be literally make or break votes.

So that is maybe something that can be a little bit forgotten or overlooked sometimes in terms of you think about, you know, John Adams or whatever saying oh, it's the most insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived or whatever that, that famous phase is. But when you think about it, they do actually have quite a lot of influence. So. So that's, yeah. Worth noting, I think.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:11

But this is, this is kind of the problem because, you know, as you mentioned, John Adams famously kind of derided the office of the vice presidency, an office which he held himself and an office in which he benefited from having, because I, arguably, he wasn't the most charismatic chap, and he potentially might not have been able to win the presidency had he not had the kind of endorsement of Washington. So it's, it's.

And it's people who have held the office who have that sort of influence saying those things that does bring the vice presidency into sort of a bit of disrepute and, and kind of destroys its credibility, doesn't it?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:08:49

Well, I think historically, yes, definitely. No, I do think it's changed. I would, you know, make that point very clearly. I mean, historically.

ther in the, the teens or the: 1920

He said, he said the vice presidency is like a man in a cataleptic fit. That's a catatonic, I think. He cannot speak, he cannot move. He suffers no pain.

He is perfectly conscious of all that goes on, but he has no part in it. And I just, that's. Whenever I teach this subject to my students, we start with that and it's like, okay, so who, who would want this job?

You know, it's almost comically unattractive because you're, you're so near everything that you want, but you are like, you know, there's a kind of a glass wall between you and, and it, if you like. Now that said, I mean, it has evolved, I think, like I said, enormously over time.

I think the, the other way, perhaps, in which those that have held the office show contempt not just through their words, as, you know, there are many, many examples we could go to.

But there's been like, for example, a couple of others where, when they have stood up, like I'm thinking of Truman perhaps, in particular, like when he stood up in, you know, in kind of quite dramatic circumstances when FDR actually died. I mean, he had been vice president. He steps up to be the president and he leaves the position vacant for a while.

I mean, I think Gerald Ford did the same thing for a temporary period. And it, I mean, to me, that just shows how mindful they were of the fact that it didn't matter if the post was empty.

So that, so words and deeds, I think historically have shown that the kind of, the disregard that the, the actual incumbent has felt for it.

Liam Heffernan: 00:10:50

Yeah. And that's interesting that because you're right.

If it was, if it was seen as a critical position or at least if there was some sort of day to day urgency in the role itself, then there would be more urgency in filling it. And it kind of brings into question what the role of the Vice president actually serves.

And there is an element there that really they're kind of a campaign tool. Right. They, they, they balance the ticket and they're there to help someone get elected in the first instance. I mean it's.

Is that all they're becoming useful for now?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:11:27

I want to say no, I mean the thing that, now that you said that I'm just so strongly reminded of, you know, always on the campaign trail, you know, you always have, you know, it was the Biden Harris ticket or the Trump fans ticket or, or the Bush Gore or sorry, you know, Bush Cheney or whatever it might be ticket, you know, it's all the hyphenated duo to the campaign. And then once they're in office it's like you don't hear so much about the other person anymore.

But I, I don't want to dismiss a, the role and be the actions because I think in, in the modern era, and I would say like maybe particularly since the 70s, I mean, I think it started changing maybe even a bit earlier than that. You know, the individuals that had to step up under dramatic circumstances. So that would be for example, Harry Truman and also Lyndon Johnson.

I think they, because they had that experience of going from being the guy in the back room, not being invited to the important meetings and being in the loop, if you like, they understood the importance then of if you are going to have a vice president and you are going to bother having that other person in the other office just waiting, you may as well bring them into the fold to some extent. So they did start setting, you know, the groundwork and I think that's really important.

And then Maybe probably the: 1970

Liam Heffernan: 00:13:10

Yeah.

And actually it's worth noting that of the 45 unique individuals who have been the president, 15 of those, so a third of those were formerly vice presidents.

So I guess it's not an insignificant office when you look at its ability to equip someone with the, I guess, the profile, the credentials and the experience to then take on the top job. But I think what's also really interesting is of those 15, nine of those assumed office because of death or resignation of the sitting president.

So that's a high ratio of presidents, you know, who have died or left office. So we should be taking this VP pick a lot more seriously, surely.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:13:59

Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, not least when the. The incumbent president, or running mate, as it might be, is.

Is older, as they tend to be, as they, you know, they are at the moment. So there's that. And I mean, I suppose the other thing that I think is really quite fascinating about this is the idea that.

So if, you know, the vice President steps in if the President is ill or is deemed to be unfit or unwell or obviously dies. Of course, course. And I mean, you have these kind of interesting moments of, you know, let's say something really unglamorous and unstatement like.

Like a colonoscopy. Right. You know, they have to go under. I mean, we don't think too much about this, but, you know, they have to go under general anesthetic.

So for that duration, they can't be in charge because they're not conscious. So you have, I think Dick Cheney stepped in for George W. Bush in that particular instance.

And then other times when I think it would have been when Ronald Reagan was shot during, or there was the assassination attempt, thankfully didn't kill him during his first term and he was rushed to hospital. And, you know, there was that kind of classic thing where he was lying, asking the. The surgeon were they a Republican or a Democrat or whatever.

You know, you. Humor under duress as always.

But it was decided at that point that he wouldn't hand over to his vice president because it would look like this is the height of the Cold War or that it would.

It would look weak, it would make the country look weak, even if it was only for a very brief period, you know, that idea of power waning from the main man, and it is still a man, as we know. It's a very, very kind of significant and consequential thing, even if it's only kind of about perception. So there's that to contend with.

And I guess the other thing in relation to the 25th Amendment is the idea that, you know, if the President is no longer deemed fit for office, now that's a bit of a tricky decision to ever be making. And I Mean, it has been, you know, there's been, I don't know, examples again back to Reagan, I suppose, where, you know, by term two.

And I think perhaps his, his cognitive faculties were not what they had been previously and those close to him could see that he was beginning to deteriorate. I'm sure, you know, in terms of his kind of public performances, he was still great, but there was a real concern about his cognitive decline.

Now, to be the person or the people to start that conversation, that's a dangerous thing, you know, because if it backfires on you, then you know, you were going to be out of that circle pretty quickly. So that's, that.

That's a really, I think, fascinating and almost timeless aspect of when somebody decides that the guy in charge is no longer up to the job, who's going to actually see that through, you know, so, and I'm just sort of speculating, I suppose, because Donald Trump is, is older and he obviously seems still very fit and capable, but he, he is not a spring chicken going into his second term in office.

Liam Heffernan: 00:17:01

Yeah. And actually, you know, it's no secret that on this show I think we, we lean a bit more to the left.

So I'm going to acknowledge that bias before I say what I'm about to say. But you know, it's.

Trump has been quite openly vindictive in the past and he's suggested that he's going to go after his enemies now that he's been re elected as president. He can do so now with the added almost monarchic protection of sort of immunity from the Supreme Court.

Exactly how that's going to play out is anyone's guess, of course. But does that make the Vice president quite a dangerous role to have now, especially if you're working for someone like Donald Trump?

If you start saying the wrong things, if you start doing the wrong things and getting on the wrong side of him, you know, too much to be safe as someone who doesn't necessarily get on with the main man. Right.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:17:56

Yeah, I think that that's going to be a really interesting dynamic to watch. I mean, obviously, you know, it is pure speculation at this point because we don't know how things are going to roll out.

There's, there was a lot of, you know, kind of amusing punditry back in the summer around the choice of Vance, you know, that how, how long would that bromance last kind of thing would, would Vance be able to kind good books long enough to make it all work. So there were certainly those things to contend with and I suppose.

I mean, again, just kind of thinking about it maybe a bit more historically, you have a. You know, there have been times when the vice president has seemed almost like a bigger character than the president.

And that's a really tricky dynamic as well to manage, you know, because if you. You're supposed to be the second in command, and if you look like you're. You're the one calling the shots or making the decisions, I think that is.

That could be kind of confusing or possibly unnerving for voters and, you know, those, you know, in the echelons of power as well. But I, you know, I'm. I've always been really fascinated by what seemed to be the relationship between George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

You know, that there was this sense that, you know, for any and all big decisions, that Bush's kind of default question was, what does Dick think?

Now, there's nothing wrong in having, you know, respect for a second opinion from an insider who's been in Washington forever, all of that kind of stuff.

But the idea that one might be deferential to the point of actually the vice president perhaps running the show more than they should, that's also problematic. So it's about. I suppose my.

My point is that it's about trying to get that power dynamic to be as level and as constructive and kind of honest as possible. And it doesn't always happen.

I mean, it remains to be seen with Trump and Vance, the duo that always struck me that seemed to be really well balanced were Bill Clinton and Al Gore.

That just seemed to me like they were, you know, obviously it got tricky later on because of Clinton's own activities, but just as two guys who were so into what they were doing and so committed and seem to really bounce off each other intellectually, that seemed like a great pairing to me.

Liam Heffernan: 00:20:17

Yeah. But there is an interesting sort of power dynamic there, as you say, and there's almost power plays by the president at times.

And I think that sort of satirized a bit in the TV show Veep, where, you know, Julia Louise Dreyfus, she's. She wants to get this big sort of thing through in, you know, the first season.

And the president sort of knows that she's ruffling a few feathers and gives her obesity as this big project to work on.

Is there this sort of sense that actually in real life as well, the vice president does kind of get handed these sort of Mickey Mouse projects that the president doesn't really have the time or enthusiasm to deal with?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:20:55

Well, yeah, I mean, that Veep series was just an absolute classic. Remember her strap line for obesity management was put the cupcake down. That was it, that, that was her brief.

So, I mean, yes, there are real world kind of parallels with that to some extent. But I mean, I think again, it goes back a bit to the kind of the, the relationship between the two.

I'm thinking about like when, when Al Gore came in and to me, and I suppose it was because it was like, you know, kind of coming up to the, the millennium and it was the whole it revolution. It was a very kind of exciting time.

And he seemed to be in charge of all the interesting, fun, dynamic stuff like, you know, the tech revolution, the space program, all of these kinds of things that just seemed like the future.

And that to me was from what I had been kind of noting, like quite a departure from what had come before in terms of them presenting as partners, if you like, rather than just being fobbed off with, you know, the stuff that the President didn't want.

Now, that said, if you think about the brief that are some of the brief anyway that Harris got from Biden, I mean, she got a couple of tricky portfolios for sure.

I mean, you know, the immigration on the southern border and trying to have a bit of a long term set of solutions for what was going on below the border in Latin America. I mean, I don't know how anyone could have come up with anything meaningful in a relatively short space of time that was politically acceptable, etc.

For that. So she was given no favors in that regard. But it's not always the case, I don't think.

Liam Heffernan: 00:22:48

I mean, cynics would maybe argue that there was something very strategic about Biden giving Harris that portfolio because it was a very tricky one to deliver as it transpired.

And actually for him, he could, he, he kind of then has this opportunity, if it goes horrifically wrong, to say, well, I trusted my Vice president and she let you down. And then you've got this opportunity to figure out how that plays out going forward.

But it's almost a way for him to not have to take full responsibility for it if it goes wrong. Right.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:23:19

Well, I mean, there's a convenience in being seen to hand somebody else the brief, certainly.

I mean, there are times when, I mean, the other time that springs to mind and I mean, this isn't actually the vice presidency, but I'm thinking of, you know, when Hillary Clinton as first lady was handed the brief of health care and, you know, had that gone right or had that worked out differently?

You know, she would have been lauded and applauded and it would have been a massive kind of string to her bow just before she steps into her own independent political career. As it happened, it crashed and burned, as we know.

But just this idea of somebody being given, you know, a pretty substantial, tricky and challenging brief and rather it goes to plan or not.

I mean, I don't know enough about the kind of the, the intricacies of the southern border remit, but certainly it seems unlikely that that was ever going to go well for Harris, to be honest.

Liam Heffernan: 00:24:19

And of course, you know, that that ended up plaguing her a little bit when she was running for office herself.

But first, I just want to come back to, because you mentioned Hillary Clinton as a First lady and I think that there is this really interesting tangential power dynamic in the White House between the first lady and the Vice President because both have the President's ear, one in a more formal political capacity and one in a more personal capacity. But those lines historically blur quite a bit, don't they? And is there, is there this undermining of the Vice President here?

When you have quite a strong willed or opinionated First Lady?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:25:00

I suppose there is the potential for that. I guess she's going to come up against, depending on who it is and who the individuals are, but there's always going to be some scope for that.

I mean, I know just off the top of my head thinking about, you know, when, when Joe Biden decided that Kamala Harris would be his running mate, I think Jill wasn't overjoyed because, you know, Harris had been, you know, on the attack with Biden back in, in the previous incarnation when they were both running for, for the post.

And obviously, you know, First Ladies tend to be, generally speaking, they tend to be very protective of their husbands as, as is perfectly understandable. So, I mean, there was a, there was a famous line from, from Jill Biden said, you know, there, there are millions of people in America.

ebates back in, I don't know,: 2019

And so that, that wasn't helpful. Now that did seem to all smooth out. That was okay.

But I think where the first lady is going to clash is when they're a kind of a, a Nancy Reagan type, a Jill Biden type, like somebody who's fiercely, fiercely loyal to her husband and where you can see that their marriages are really genuine and that kind of Almost watchdog kind of role that the first lady has is coming from a place of real authenticity. If you think about somebody like Melania Trump, for example, like, that's a very different experience in terms of hands off.

I mean, the extent of which she has her husband's ear.

I mean, perhaps to some extent, but you can see what a different dynamic it is rather than, you know, the, the, the couples who really present genuinely as being in a loving marriage. That would be the Obamas, the Reagan's, the Bidens, you know, you can tell.

And I think then that can be sometimes if the first lady thinks that her husband is being exploited, overworked, undermined, disrespected, any of those things, then they will jump in for sure.

Liam Heffernan: 00:27:04

Yeah. But it's interesting though, isn't it?

Because the first lady, you're right, like, I mean, figures like Melania Trump, she's really kind of redefining that, that, that role a little bit compared to her recent comparables. But I think first ladies generally have a little bit more autonomy. Right, because they, they can talk to the President, I say 24 7.

I mean, they're busy people, but, you know, it's a lot easier to suggest things and have slightly more open conversations at the dinner table, of course, when the eyes of the world aren't watching. And that can be very influential in terms of what the President then decides to do.

And there's a crossover there because in theory that's, that's what the Vice President is for. Right. But you can't help the first lady, and hopefully in future the first man, from having that sort of influence over their spouse.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:28:02

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And I'd say where the other clash as well would be, and this is probably a podcast for a different day, but the dynamics with the chief of staff, you know, because that's such a powerful, influential personal role and arguably closer to the President than the Vice President would actually be in terms of kind of remit and all the rest of it. So that's, that's a very interesting set of interactions as well. So, like, I remember one of Obama's staffers saying this years ago.

And I mean, it's true for all of them, but they just said it very succinctly. They said the thing that people want more than anything with the president is FaceTime.

You know, if you get five minutes with the President, you're doing very well. Obviously if you're the, you know, head of an important state or whatever, you get more.

But generally speaking, like, you know, their day is Just divided up into the tiniest blocks of FaceTime with whoever.

And so that thing of, you know, the first lady not having to schedule the time and the same, like, if they have children, you know, that they are the ones that get. They get the soft time, if you like, and the soft, unscripted interactions, and those are priceless and. And powerful things.

So it really, I guess the takeaway is it's really helpful if they have a strong marriage, because it's a lonely, difficult, stressful, demanding, solitary job. And if you do have somebody that you can have a hug with at the end of the day, I think that's absolutely crucial.

Liam Heffernan: 00:29:26

Absolutely. I think for me, the overlap between the first lady and, I guess, the political sphere is.

because there was a point in: 2024

Clodagh Harrington: 00:30:16

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there would have been an awful lot of people who would have been overjoyed and relieved had she won now.

She'd have had all the haters as well.

It's not to pretend that it would have been a smooth ride, but, I mean, I think she did say very clearly previously that she was never going to run after, you know, her time in the White House and even with her soft power and her unofficial role, I mean, she got a lot of hate. She really did.

So for everybody that held her in the highest regard, as, you know, many did, there was somebody else, you know, being derogatory about her. So, I mean, one would totally understand why, for personal reasons, she wouldn't.

But it would have been a balm and a tonic, I think, to an awful lot of people, especially in that post, that period where Biden's power was kind of unraveling, albeit softly.

But it was, I think, the role that she did take on over the summer of, you know, kind of motivator and cheerleader and being there on the podium, you know, as often as her husband was over the summer, it just showed that, you know, she still has massive soft power and influence. And maybe in some ways it's good to keep that as it is rather than, you know, channeling it into the more formal route. As Hillary Clinton did.

And, you know, of course, it's. It's great that she tried, but certainly she. She's kind of keeping her brand less contaminated, I think, if you like.

But by not running, because, you know, the minute you run, everybody's in the gutter, you know, so. So I really respect and understand why she wouldn't.

Liam Heffernan: 00:31:46

Yeah, yeah, of course. And let's go back to this idea of, you know, legacy here, because, you know, you touched on that already with, With Michelle Obama.

And, you know, in terms of presidential legacy, I think it's interesting that, okay, 15 former vice presidents have been able to win the presidency, six of those entirely through their own merit of campaigning and winning. But do you think that there is this inheritance of your boss's legacy when you are running yourself, having been a vice president?

You know, thinking back to that quote that you gave about, you know, the vice president being like a catatonic state, you know, you're doing none of the decision making, but you are marred with that brush.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:32:36

Yes. I mean, it must be. It's a kind of a. It's a help and a hindrance, I suppose, isn't it?

You know, I mean, again, think back to, you know, somebody like Harry Truman or whatever, who, you know, gets promoted, if that's the right way to put it, you know, under. Under really quite traumatic and dramatic circumstances for the nation. I mean, you can say the same about Lyndon Johnson.

In a way, it's worse for him because, I mean, at least FDR was the father of the nation dying, which is a profound moment, but it's still, It's. It's in keeping with the order of things, isn't it? Whereas when Kennedy dies, it's like the son of the nation is. Is struck down so publicly and so.

So horrifically, and he has to step in. So there are different ways where you can, I suppose, kind of utilize the. The hand that you're dealt.

I mean, Truman, he seemed so small after fdr, you know, the little man from Missouri or whatever. It's like how. How to fill and grow into that space. And I mean, arguably he did. And, you know, history now looks at him really with more than respect.

You know, he's held in extremely high esteem with Johnson. I think he was pretty adept in the sense that, you know, arguably he was perhaps a little bit more socially to the left than Kennedy was.

So, you know, coming in and with all the kind of the, you know, the civil rights progress that was bubbling along in the early 60s, and he gets to say, oh, but but, but we must, we must do this. You know, it's, it's, it's what President Kennedy would have wanted. And there's, you know, very strong kind of a, kind of a moral push with that.

So it, it depends a bit.

I mean, if you're, if you're George Bush senior coming in after eight years of Reagan, I mean, again, going back to what I said earlier about, you know, Reagan being the shining star, it's hard to hold up if you're not such a radiant character yourself as Bush senior wasn't, then it's really quite difficult and it must be frustrating when everyone, like pundits and journalists and the like, keep referring to you as Reagan's third term. You know, you're only there because we couldn't have Reagan back again.

That must be annoying because you're bringing your own skills and talents to the job.

So I think it does depend, I mean, we've seen this with Harris, I suppose, particularly maybe in this campaign that's just happened because she had that extremely difficult tightrope to walk in that, you know, she was in that position because of Joe Biden for A, he chose her as his vice president, B, you know, he agreed to step down, she steps out. You know, we all know that story.

And then afterwards she is criticized because she didn't distance herself enough from him and you know, sort of step away from his presidential agenda. So, you know, is it because she was too loyal that she didn't do better in the election? You know, that's, that's for another day.

But just the, you know, the likes of James Carville and others saying, oh, she should have just cut loose instantly. That's what politics is about. It's about winning, you know, personal loyalty and being kind and like that gets you nowhere.

And I mean, I'm literally listening to James Carver saying this recently and thinking, okay, perhaps he's correct because she lost.

But on the other hand, I mean, you have to surely have some integrity and loyalty and respect for the person who put you in your position of power in the first place. So I don't quite know what the answer to all that is, but it's tricky taking the mantle from somebody else. For sure.

Liam Heffernan: 00:36:12

Definitely. I mean, yeah, everyone loves compassion and loyalty in politics until you lose an election. Right.

I think there is a double edged sword though to it, isn't there?

Because if the president that you've been veeped to was really popular like Reagan, the bar is so high it's almost impossible to live up to those Expectations, as George Bush found because he lost his re election bid.

But then if you were the Vice President to say Biden, who had quite a low approval rating and was considered not particularly highly successful president, certainly right now you're kind of then having to fight immediately against this wave of criticism because you were part of that administration.

So it's really challenging as a vice president who does want to then move up into the presidency because you've either got to live up to high expectations or you've got to fight against the low expectations created by, by your boss.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:37:13

Yeah, absolutely. And, and you have.

I mean, I obviously, I mean, I suppose every, every situation is slightly unique in, in that, you know, it's different individuals and all the rest of it.

But I mean, the one that springs to mind again is, you know, after eight years of Bill Clinton and Al Gore is running for office and I mean, Gore was so accomplished and, you know, had a, a CV that was, you know, phenomenally impressive and all the rest of it. But by the end of the Clinton second term, the Clinton brand was pretty contaminated.

So Gore is in that really tricky position of, well, he wouldn't have been where he was had it not been for his friend Bill Clinton.

And yet even having Clinton on the campaign trail with them at that point was problematic because, you know, of all the scandals and all the rest of it associated with Clinton. So Gore is trying to kind of, you know, present himself as other.

And then he has the problem on, you know, like with the debates and all that where, you know, he's presenting what his brief would be, etc. And of course his opponents can say, you were there for eight years, why don't you do this already?

So you're always going to have that argument pushed back on you.

Liam Heffernan: 00:38:24

And also, you know, you've got to think, since, I don't know, for most of the last hundred years, the only example I can think of of a vice president successfully winning election after eight years of a president from the same party is George Bush Sr.

You know, Americans typically get very itchy feet after eight years of one party and it's incredibly difficult for the same party to then put another candidate in and win. Win the presidency.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:38:57

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, it is a pendulum, I think, for sure. And you know, as you say, it's not even necessarily about which party it is.

It's just the fact that eight years of anything is a very long time and people do tend to be bursting for the other. You see, you see it in other countries as well. You See it in the UK and elsewhere. You know, it's not unusual in any way.

But I suppose it must be frustrating then for that individual who's going, okay, I have eight years insider experience. You know, I know the mechanics and the dynamics. I know, you know, blah, blah, blah.

I know how to sort of move on from what's come before, all of this kind of thing. And yet they don't always get the opportunity to do it. I think in some ways, I mean, if we were to think of the kind of the.

The converse of that, then then maybe the best way to go about it is to be, you know, a Dick Cheney kind of a person and go, well, I'm not running, you know, for. I don't know what it was, his health or his heart or whatever he said, or maybe just didn't want to, didn't feel the need to. But he's in there.

He's arguably the most powerful vice president ever, I would say, in terms of what he did and how he perceived the role.

And he's liberated from any sort of constraints in terms of, oh, well, I better toe the line or look a bit deferential or whatever if I want to carry on the mantle. He just said no, and that's fine. So, I mean, in a way, that might be a way to go.

Liam Heffernan: 00:40:24

Yeah, yeah, it's a great example and I guess sort of following on from that just to sort of wrap up everything we've spoken about. How much control do you think the vice president really has ultimately in shaping an administration and a presidency?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:40:43

I think perhaps where their influence and kind of consequence can be felt, going back to the idea of the kind of, the softer side of it. It depends a bit on the rapport between the president and their veep.

You know, there have been some, you know, you wouldn't necessarily put, I don't know, Walter Mondale up as the most, you know, he wasn't Dick Cheney, let's put it that way.

But on the other hand, you know, Mondale and Carter, they have this, what seems to me like an unprecedented relationship as president and vice president because it is transformed from, you know, the boss and the person in the other room to actual genuine friends with a genuine sense of kind of parity. You know, having the regular meetings. Mondale is in the room at all times.

Carter takes, you know, a phenomenally long time to make sure that he's choosing the right person, all of this kind of thing. So it's like the role is taken seriously. And I don't mean that from that point on it's just gotten stronger. That, that would be far too simplistic.

But that Mondale esque way of being the Vice President can actually be very influential because it means you are in the room, you are being listened to and you know, that thing of, you know, being the last person in the room with the president when everybody else has left, that's the kind of power that the Veep can have.

So whilst it might not be so kind of exciting and as kind of glamorous as some of the other roles, it can, depending on the rapport, I think, really actually be quite influential.

Liam Heffernan: 00:42:23

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's an interesting discussion and I think the Veep generally doesn't get the attention and the focus maybe it deserves.

So hopefully we've been able to do our little bit for that in this. In this podcast. And so that about wraps up this episode. Thank you so much to my guest, Clodagh Harrington for joining me.

And if you want to find out more, because you love listening to this, we're going to put some useful links in the show notes, so check those out as well. Koda, if anyone wants to connect with you, where can they do that?

Clodagh Harrington: 00:42:55

Yeah, I'm still on Twitter X for now anyway, so I am drcloda on there. So yep, be delighted if anybody wants to give me a follow, I'll follow them back. I'm on LinkedIn as well.

Still actually getting my head around LinkedIn. But yeah, I do use X quite a lot for work purposes.

Liam Heffernan: 00:43:15

Awesome. Yeah, and you can find me as well on X. I'm still there and on Blue sky because I love jumping on a bandwagon and LinkedIn as well.

Just search for my name and you should find me.

And if you enjoy listening to this podcast, please leave us a rating and a review wherever you are listening to this and give us a follow as well so that all future episodes appear in your feed. And also if you follow the links in the show notes, you can support the show from as little as one pound.

But if you pledge a little bit more, you also get early access to some of the bonus content, such as the one we're going to record straight after this. Thank you so much for listening and goodbye.

Clodagh Harrington: 00:43:53

Sa.