Is Disneyland the Happiest Place on Earth?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:01

pened its doors in Anaheim in: 1955

But why do people love it so much? How does it continue to amaze after so long? And is Disneyland really the happiest place on Earth? Welcome to America, a history podcast.

I'm Niam Heffernan, and every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places, and the events that make the USA what it is today.

To discuss this, I am joined by a research associate at the University of Castle, following a PhD in American Cultural history with a focus on theme parks.

Her books include a cultural history of the Disneyland theme parks, Middle Class Kingdoms, and she's one of the foremost academics on all things Disneyland. So it's a real pleasure to welcome Sabrina Mittermeier.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:01:21

Hi. Glad to be here.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:23

Yeah, it's really good to have you on the podcast. It's not the first time that we've discussed Disney on the podcast, and it's absolutely not going to be the last time.

But we've never actually discussed specifically Disneyland before, which is. Which is mad because the theme parks are such a huge part of Disney's whole business, right?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:01:42

Yeah, absolutely. I think they're. I mean, ever since they opened, they've been a key part. But right now, it would be hard to imagine the company without the parks.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:52

Absolutely. So let's start from the beginning, I guess.

Tell us about the birth of Disneyland and what was at the time just a film studio decided to build a theme park.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:02:03

So it's: 1955

But the US is doing really well following World War II. So that's kind of the setting we're in socioeconomically. Obviously, not everyone is doing that well, but again, white people certainly are.

And Disney has already made a name for himself, or the company has come up, obviously, as this big studio. They've produced Snow White and a bunch of other animated films.

They kind of had issues through World War II as well, because they were conscripted by the government. But this is over now, so it's kind of a new turning over a new leaf. And it's also Walt Disney looking for new things to do.

I mean, I should say this is probably like 53, 54, when this idea starts to. To become More real. Like he's kind of combining a few things he's been meaning to do for a while. So he becomes interested in.

I mean the myth kind of is that he goes to a playground with his two daughters and he's kind of frustrated by the fact that he has to kind of sit there and watch them play and they can't play together, they can't do anything together. So that's kind of that idea of like family entertainment. Like what is there to do for families?

He's of a generation where he would have grown up with amusement parks all over the United States. In fact, his. So he's from the Midwest and his father also worked on the World's Fair.

So there's like two kind of similar things to what theme parks are now today are certainly around like World's Fairs and amusement parks. But by the time of the 50s, amusement parks are kind of the, like have fallen apart mostly through the Great Depression and then afterwards.

So they're not really that important anymore. And they were kind of working class entertainment to begin with.

And Disney has the idea that he wants to do something that is again more family friendly, more middle class friendly or upper class friendly. So yeah, all of this starts to come together really. Like he wants new things, he has a few ideas and they kind of turn into this idea of a park.

And the other factor is again the studios are already very popular and but people can't visit them to this day. You cannot visit the Walt Disney Studios in Hollywood. And that's kind of trying to fill that gap as well.

Of like, oh, people want to see Disney kind of in the Flash or Disney Studios in the flesh.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:42

Yeah. And it's really easy though to look back on that now and think, well, that's a no brainer.

Obviously, you know, you need some kind of live experience that people can visit. But at the time it must have been quite different and innovative for its time.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:04:57

Yeah, definitely. So studio tours are already a thing. Like, I mean Universal still has a studio tour and then turn into theme parks later, much later than Disney.

But yeah, when he's trying to get money for this, famously nobody really wants to invest in it because it would be a massive risk of like, why are you doing this? This is kind of a mad idea.

There's the, the story that gets retold over and over again that he has to put up his own life insurance as collateral because even though he owns part of his studios, I mean by now that's like a massive venture. His brother Roy is also kind of the finance guy of the studio.

And he's like, you can't just take the money out of the studio and put it into this new thing. That money has to come from elsewhere. And they end up striking a deal with abc, which by then is the third network.

I mean, this is a time of like, television is new. There are three networks and ABC is kind of the, the smallest and like struggles as well.

So they like strike up this mutually beneficial deal of like, okay, look, I'm going to produce a television show for you guys that's called Disneyland, which is actually just advertising for the park to a certain degree. And you're going to give me like, that money is gonna help fund this.

So this is how that comes together, because nobody really knows what this is gonna be at that point in time.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:20

What strikes me as odd is that, you know, Disney by this point, they are a big studio, but they don't have the sort of resource that the other huge, more established studios in Hollywood have. So why was it Disney that saw the potential in this kind of diversification? Because any of the big studios could have done it, right?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:06:40

Yeah, I mean, I guess it's just always somebody having the idea. I mean, there's a lot that gets credited to Walt Disney as a person that he didn't necessarily do.

Like, a lot of his quotes, for instance, weren't written by him.

But I think what he did do very well is kind of like he had a very innovative mind, particularly when it came to kind of coming up with these bigger, just kind of out of the box ideas to a certain degree and then getting the right people together to do it. Like he's a great producer, like he knows what to find people. It's hard to say why nobody else was doing it.

I actually just recently read a paper and if I get by whom that there may have been other contemporaries that were willing to invest in like amusement parks in a different way.

So that kind of collaboration was around at the same time, but like starting something new from scratch certainly wasn't so hard to say why they wouldn't. I don't think any studio bosses necessarily. I mean, to this day, those aren't the creative people anyway. Right. Would have come up with that.

And Disney was in the beneficial position of like being his own CEO and kind of having a more creative streak.

Liam Heffernan: 00:07:54

It seems to me from what you've said that just the entire concept of a theme park didn't exist in the way that we understand it today. And perhaps Disneyland was quite pivotal in that.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:08:08

Yeah, absolutely. So what does exist is like amusement parks of the day and even of the 19th century definitely had like themes to them.

Like attractions had themes to them. Or sometimes the parks, like famously like Coney island was home to several of these parks. One of them is called Luna Park.

So you do have themes, but not kind of in the way that Disneyland does it or the way we understand theme parks now, also with like angel intellectual property attached to it, where you theme the rights to like an existing film. And that is definitely something that the Disney pioneers at that moment in time.

That idea, again, that idea of like, oh, people want to visit either where we make the movies, or rather they will probably want to exist in the worlds of these movies. And that's kind of the idea that they tap into that of course, by now is really popular. This is why a lot of people go to theme parks, right? They.

They like a certain property and they, they want to go imme themselves in that world. Like the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, for instance, or whatever.

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:12

Yeah.

And that seems like something that Disney really understood before anyone else was the power of this brand synergy in that the theme parks or the movies or any other thing that it was doing in isolation could be commercially successful. But actually, if you bring it all together and create a whole universe as Disney did, actually the potency of that is so much stronger.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:09:37

Yeah, like synergy. This is really where Disney was a genius and not just himself, but his team.

But that idea of really bringing it together is really early examples of, I mean, again, just having the synergy between that television show and producing content for the television show and then kind of advertising the park with it, but also within the park of like, we're going to do a fantasy land that's just riots based on the animated movies we've already put out. And even Sleeping Beauty Castle is. It's just advertising because the park opens in 55. The movie isn't even out till 57.

The castle also looks absolutely nothing like the castle in the film. Like the one in Disneyland Paris actually is very close to those designs. But that's like 40 plus years later. 40 years later. 30. But like it's, It's.

Yeah, like it's just. They call it Sleeping Beauty Castle because the film is about to come out. Like, that's the only reason it's called that.

Liam Heffernan: 00:10:40

So you mentioned that Walt Disney was struggling to get the financial backing to sort of bring Disneyland to life once it was built and open. What was the reaction?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:10:51

Like, it was actually like a wild success immediately Like, I mean through the fact that this television show becomes, it becomes the go to thing families watch on a Sunday night. Like there's just a massive built in audience. They host this big opening event that's like live televised as well. And they sell tickets.

They end up having more people show up than they sold tickets for because apparently black market tickets already existed. So it's, it is very successful.

And then like I think within the first year, I, I don't remember the exact numbers anymore, but I think they also, they break even fairly quickly as well. I mean they pull up this whole park within a year, which I think now is unimaginable if you about how long it takes to build one attraction now.

And I think the reason for that is also they build on what used to be orange groves in Anaheim. So they just have this land that nobody cares about. There isn't anything around it now. You always have to negotiate.

But like the communities that, like there's communities all around these parks. Right? And, and I think building codes are much different and everything is different.

But like I think, yeah, they pull up this park in a year and then people just come and they wants.

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:05

Up showing up and you know, we'll talk more about Orlando in a bit. But just to sort of touch on that.

I think sometimes we see Walt Disney as this sort of genius creative, but he was incredibly commercially savvy as well.

When you look at, you know, buying the land for California and then ultimately, you know, buying this vast amount of land in Florida because he had that vision and sort of really seeing the big picture, I mean that's, you know, that was bold, wasn't it?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:12:32

Yeah, I think so.

And I think he had to be reeled in when it came to the actual nuts and bolts of the money, which again is usually where his brother comes in and then certainly tons of other advisors at this point. I mean, when they stake out the land for Anaheim, they put, put in a research study with Stanford about where it would be most profitable to build.

Like, it's not just like, oh, let's build wherever.

And then, yeah, by the time Orlando rolls around, they do, they purchase all of this land really cheaply because they do it through like strawman companies and that. So yeah, certainly there's a lot of very, very smart business strategy that I don't even want to attribute to Walt as a person.

It's just like they, there's a lot of people working at this company.

Disney's just very good at obscuring everything and always attributing it back to kind of the brand, or by that point, the man who's still alive when he dies, it kind of turns into, oh, Disney does this.

Liam Heffernan: 00:13:28

But, yeah, I mean, let's talk about that sort of Disney magic, because that's part of what makes it so special is that actually all of the stuff, all the business stuff and the stuff that kind of grounds Disney in sort of real life, they do hide away. And actually they create this sort of spectacle and this magic around everything they do. But I guess, like, why and how. How do they make that work?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:13:53

It's always hard to say how.

I think it is also just an incredibly tight branding strategy that they've held onto for, like, I mean, not fully 100 years, but I do think it starts early. So there's. There's a lot of understanding of how important the brand is.

And then turning Walt into this figurehead, even while he's still alive, the fact that he kind of hosts the Disneyland show also turns him into this kind of neo mythical figure for people that at the same time is kind of, like, approachable in a way. Like, people grow up with him on their television, like that parasocial thing. And, yeah, I think they're just.

They're just incredibly protective of this brand and they do everything in their power that the brand's reputation isn't tarnished.

And of course, over time, there's been multiple incidents where it has been, but never to a point where I think ever took real damage for, like, on a. On a broad scale, and it's hard to say why. And I mean, and I think the magical aspect is, like, people are just.

I mean, we can talk about techniques of how theme parks do that in a theme park, designers do that while they're there. But I think there's just something of, like, oh, they produce all this children's entertainment, this family entertainment.

People grow up with it in different ways than I do with, I think, any other brand.

Like, nobody thinks of Universal, Comcast, Universal and has any kind of emotional attachment except for a few hardcore fans of, like, Universal Studios theme park. But they wouldn't have existed until maybe 20, 30 years ago.

Liam Heffernan: 00:15:31

But I think Disney kind of have this challenge of.

With the theme park, people love Disney so much that when they go to the theme park, those expectations need to be met with this sort of almost like immersive experience where you feel like you're part of the Disney World. And that's not luck that people go there and have this magical time.

I mean, I've heard things about Them, you know, pumping different scents into different parts of the park to create that experience.

And you know, and just when you walk around the park, the detail in the theming and everything that goes into making sure that when you're in Disney you forget about the rest of the world. I mean, you know, it's incredibly, incredibly calculated, isn't it?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:16:17

Yeah.

And I mean it is an art form certainly I would say, like what they call imagineering, like that art of like immersive entertainment that they're just really, really good at and very detail oriented and. Yeah, and I mean things like the sense and stuff, I don't know if they even still do that.

But like, I mean certainly it's, it is about kind of involving all of your senses, like sounds and like having no visual intrusions. Like they're very careful about building their park so you don't see the outside, outside of it. I mean it's, it's not even true all the time.

But for instance, in the Magic Kingdom you can certainly see outside of the park in some bits and pieces in Tomorrowland, but you see Disney World still. Like that is its whole own thing, for instance.

So that kind of idea of just like we're building this away from things, which was also the idea for Disneyland in Anaheim. It's just then Anaheim, then people started building around it and now it's not anymore.

But mostly when you're within the parks, you still, they still manage for you to not see like Katella Avenue or the gas station or the traffic of LA or whatever. Right. Or the motels or all of that stuff that's around it. The same goes for all of the other parks.

Most of them are in areas where at least they're doing visual intrusion stuff. It's like, like a very, very calculated and. And I mean, I think there's a lot of people just being there.

There is an amount of suspension of disbelief involved because at least on one occasion I've been in the park with someone who really didn't buy into it. And then it also doesn't work if you're not interested or if you're tired and hungry and cranky. It stops working on you.

It also works on me if, like, it stops working on me to a certain extent if I'm just, you know, if you've been in lines the whole day and you just want food or there's a thunderstorm passing through. So not that magical anymore.

Liam Heffernan: 00:18:18

Yeah, that's fair.

And I, I guess, you know, there's maybe a whole nother conversation just you know, maybe how Bob Iger and, and very briefly Bob Chapek have sort of commercialized the parks and, and have maybe allowed some sort of external commercial tie ins more than than previously.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:18:37

Yeah, I think Michael Eisner gets a bad rep honestly because he did a lot for the company that did not want to ignore that he did.

But the full on like the moment Disney turns into a full on conglomerate that it is today that then also interferes with what is being put into the parks. That's Eisner.

Liam Heffernan: 00:18:55

You know, you mentioned this sort of suspension of disbelief before we get full on into sort of the Disney machine that it is today.

I think what's really interesting is, you know, we were just having a conversation before we started recording about how we're booking to go to Disneyland Paris. Even as adults we know what the Disney machine is. We understand what's going on behind the scenes.

But we're still willing to put all of that aside because there's something, is it nostalgia? Is it something else? You know, we still want to recapture that magic when we go to the park.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:19:24

Yeah, I mean I think by now it's multiple things like I think we're both millennials. For us it's certainly nostalgia because I think also because of Michael Eisner we're probably outside of the baby boomers.

I think the baby boomers and the millennials are likely the two generations that have grown up most attached to Disney brand.

I think for the boomers, particularly the US boomers again with the Disneyland television show that comes out when they're little so they get tied to this brand very, very easily and but for us it's that because we we're children.

When Eisner is at the height of his game and it not just him, once again tons of people he hires and that are in the studio when he there and particularly with like the so called like Disney Renaissance films of the 80s and 90s of like you know, those are the things that are around with children and they're massively successful. And of course now I think so. So there is nostalgia. Like it's been inescapable ever since we're children.

I mean statistically now a lot of us have kids of their own. I don't but like I could have. Right. So it's. So you start taking your own kids. We've reached that point.

And yeah, I mean again I think escapism always works.

Like I think it's too many people still associate Disney with just kids entertainment when again it's been Family entertainment all along, which by extension means it has to appeal to the adults. And it will also appeal to the adults when the adults arrive there without children.

Liam Heffernan: 00:20:54

I think you can kind of see, you know, that that sort of family entertainment versus kids entertainment is really evident when you look at sort of Disney films and how there's always that undertone of adult humor even in, you know, the most sort of child friendly of Disney animated films. And I think it taps into exactly that, doesn't it?

You know, if the parents aren't willing to part with thousands of dollars or pounds or euros of their cash to go to Disney World, well then it doesn't really matter how much the kids want to go there.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:21:21

Yeah, I think so.

And I mean most of the time if the kids are really little, the coolest thing like for a four year old, the most interesting thing is the hotel pool school. That is has been true since I was little. It is true today. And I think that is really the thing. Once they get older. Yes.

But I think for, for especially when they're so little, they won't remember they have been there. I think that trip is for the parents. It is also for the parents to have memories with their child. But I think, I think that really is the thing.

No three year old in the world on their own has any kind of I want to go to Disneyland. They don't even know what that is yet.

Liam Heffernan: 00:22:00

Right, that's it. Let's talk about Orlando.

Because I think for a lot of reasons to me it feels like the pivotal moment for Disney in that, you know, Disneyland itself went from being an attraction a day out to being a destination holiday.

But it also strikes me as being the moment that Disney realized that the theme parks were so much more than just the kind of the end result of the movies. It sort of, it feels to me like Orlando. Orlando signaled Disney's long term ambitions that were going to be centered around the theme parks.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:22:37

Yeah, I mean, I think Orlando is interesting in that regard because the only reason they buy all this land in Orlando is because Disney wants to build a whole city. He has no interest in building more theme parks at that point in time.

He wants to build Epcot and Epcot is supposed to be the experimental prototype community of tomorrow, which is going to be a city.

And he gets like government support and money and he wants to get like support from companies and whatever and just do this kind of model city and like, you know, modern living, which is a big point of contention by then in the like late 50s, early 60s, like he starts to develop this idea in the early 60s, and kind of what happened to Disneyland as a park is exactly what he despises. And what kind of the issue has turned into. So the 50s, like, this is where, I mean. I mean, this is a history podcast, right? So I can do this.

But like, the 50s are again, like the baby boom and the economic boom and all of this. What that means is all the white affluent people move out of American city centers into the suburbs. Like, this is where sub up Curtis culture starts.

This is also why Disneyland is in Anaheim, outside of kind of the center of the city. Or like, I mean, LA is kind of weird because it's like 10 cities in a trench coat anyway. But it's not like, it's also not in Burbank.

They're not building it in Burbank. So it is. You can only get there by car at that point. And that's intentional.

But what that means economically in the US is a lot of the big downtowns of cities, whether that's LA or New York City. New York City being one of the hardest hit in this, in the long run is they fall apart because the money goes away.

So there's like, communities of people of color, there's queer communities of people who stay in the city, but those are usually not the affluent ones. And that also means that local governments have zero interest in investing in those communities, even though they obviously should be.

So by the time of the early 60s, like, this idea of, like, what are we doing with our cities? And what are we doing with, like, urban development in the US becomes big.

So this is when Disney is like, hey, I have this cool idea from Model City and we're gonna put it into Florida, into this, like, swampland. But once again, it's the question of, like, who's gonna finance this?

Again, he gets certain there's certain government programs he can tap into and there's like, support of other companies he wants to get in the long run, but that's not their sponsorship deals, right? So to finance it, he wants to build a second Disneyland. Like, that's just going to be a means to an end.

There's never just a plan of like, oh, this thing works, let's build another one. But that's what happens. And then the other thing that happens is that obviously Epcot doesn't exist today.

n because Walt Disney dies in: 1966

So that idea that is with him also, because it kind of becomes apparent that this was always a pipe dream of his and it's not feasible, but then you have all this land and then they're like, okay, we're already building. Like, we should build this other theme park at least. And that's.

Liam Heffernan: 00:25:55

They do realize it later on to some extent with the town of Celebration, don't they?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:26:00

Yes and no. I mean, people always pull up Celebration as this. Like, oh, this is what Epcot should have been. No, Celebration is a gated community. Like, it's.

It looks like every other gated community in Florida at the time or now. I mean, they also. It's no longer the thing that it even was for the first five minutes of it existence. But.

But it's not much more interesting than it's just a nice gated community, kind of a company town. Like company towns have also existed everywhere and they still do.

Liam Heffernan: 00:26:37

I mean, you mentioned, you know, Walt Disney died in the 60s. So what happened at that point in terms of, you know, the plans for Orlando? I guess, firstly, why did they still go ahead with building anything?

And secondly, you know, what then happens for them to think, actually, we're not going to do Walt's version of this, we're going to just go right down the theme park route.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:26:58

Yeah. Again, it's just clear that this Epcot idea is absolutely not feasible. To build a city that people can actually live in is an absolutely mad idea.

He also has all these ideas for public transport. Those are some of the things that survive, like the monorail in Walt Disney World.

The monorail also exists in Disneyland, but, like, obviously Walt Disney World has a bigger system. They apply for a lot of permissions and they have a lot of kind of like, special rights to the territory and to the state. Have this.

Which led to a conflict with Ron DeSantis not that long ago.

But they have, they have a lot of freedom with the land that they're sitting on in Florida, the so called Reedy Creek Improvement District, because it was supposed to give them the permissions you need to build kind of housing in the city and like all the other things you. You need, which they now need to operate four theme parks on this land in like 30 hotels. But yeah, and I mean, they, they make use of that.

Like, they have their own zoning and like building codes and, and that kind of stuff. And they can be more creative with things like plumbing and like, what. Whatever infrastructure you need. But yeah, like, they kind of.

Roy Disney then takes over because he outlives his brother and then even though he's the older. Yeah, he's the older one.

It's just Walt Disney dies of lung cancer because he was a heavy smoker all of his life, which you never see him do because he's Walt Disney. But he was well known for being a heavy smoker. But I mean, it's also the generation, right? Everyone was a heavy smoker.

But yeah, they decide, okay, well, we have this land now and we've already purchased it. And they already had these plans in place to build this other theme park and then also turn it into a proper vacation resort.

So this plan for the Magic Kingdom, plus the first three at that point, hotels right around it, that just kind of comes to fruition because it seems, I think it's just a no brainer of like, well, that will work. And it does. Also, Florida at this point is already a tourist destination. In the early, like by the point this kind of starts to come together.

So in the early 70s is a tourist destination.

Liam Heffernan: 00:29:10

You say Florida was already a tourist destination, which means there was other competition there for other, you know, companies trying to get tourists.

And, you know, I think, and even, even not just then looking now you've got, you know, a lot more theme parks, a lot more, you know, competitors to Disney.

It must really annoy everyone else that Disney has this crazy amount of autonomy over its land because that, that must give it a huge competitive edge.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:29:37

Yeah, sure. And also, I mean, nobody else has that much land.

I mean, again, it's sort of an innovative idea in a sense to kind of say, we're gonna build this vacation resort from scratch. I mean, that also has to do with how Americans vacation.

They have very little vacation days compared to the rest of the world, or at least the Western world. And so most of the time you go on a vacation for a week and you stay in the same place, particularly as a family.

So it is again that thing of like, okay, you're gonna go there and we want to give you a week's worth of things to do. So it's like the park and the hotels, like have pools and restaurants and you want to stay there.

There will be shopping and dining, which, which happens much later. But this is one of the things you can do there now. And then there will be golf courses and stuff like that.

And then obviously it balloons into kind of water parks and whatever. And again, Florida in its own right. If you go down there, I mean, Disney wants you to stay on their property to this day.

And they succeed in that plan. But realistically, I mean, Orlando isn't that big yet. Orlando becomes big because of Disney. But I mean, the Everglades are not far. The.

That has always, like, obviously existed. Like, that's a national. I think it's a national park, or at least it's like a protected area. And. And then Miami is also by car, not super far.

And Americans go everywhere by car. So it's. Yeah. And the weather. Right. Like, this is just. It kind of makes sense to go where they go.

Liam Heffernan: 00:31:19

I mean, the whole question of this episode is, you know, is Disneyland the happiest place on Earth? But I think what's.

What's unmistakable today is that it's certainly the most profitable, at least part of Disney, you know, when you look now, because I think, you know, that maybe deliberately the new movie releases, you know, get pushed a lot and people see how many billions of dollars, you know, the movies make and, you know, and all that. But actually, the theme parks by far, far are their biggest revenue maker, aren't they?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:31:48

I'm actually, I don't have the numbers right now because I think that also massively fluctuates over the years. I don't think initially it is. I mean, it is an easy cash cow. But I mean, theme parks also cost a lot in their upkeep.

And I mean now, I mean, during the pandemic, they certainly weren't. That's what I mean. Like, it keeps. They need to kind of get it back. And I mean, also by now it's not just movies and theme parks.

There's also television shows. It's also a cruise line. It's also different television channels and the streaming service they own. And it's. It's 50 million things.

Games for a while now less. So they kind of sold that off.

I mean, the fact, like, if you account for everything to do with Lucasfilm and Marvel Studios, I'm not sure the theme parks completely out triumph that. But I mean, the.

The genius again is obviously it keeps working in tandem because as soon as the Marvel Cinematic Universe becomes big, they start to plan theme park lands and attractions based on that.

And I mean, the only reason a lot of this has taken so long to open was a rights dispute with some of the Marvel rights with Universal and Sony, but also the pandemic and stuff like that. But like, for instance, Star wars is in the parks before Disney even buys Lucas Film.

But after they acquire it, they immediately start to get started on like, what is now Galaxy's Edge. So the actual Star wars areas in California And Florida. So I think, like one, it is really always the synergy.

I think there must be the numbers out there. They must be available to the shareholders. And I know the shareholder reports exist in there. They are accessible.

But I think as a whole, it's just like keeping the balance and keeping all of the parts of the company work together at all times, because you never know what will happen. And in the case of a global pandemic, probably a smart move to not have everything set on the theme parks.

Liam Heffernan: 00:33:53

Because this is where the genius in Disney's brand synergy comes into play, because it's so cyclical now as well. You could watch.

You could watch a film and then suddenly, you know, you might want to, you know, buy some merchandise, but then, oh, hey, presto, there's a new land coming to. To a Disney park, all about this film that you love. And then you go to the park.

But then actually, when you're going to the park, oh, here's a load of like, you know, exclusive merch that you might want to buy at the park. Not to mention, before you go, you want to buy some new clothes. Hey, buy some Disney clothes. Because it's on. On brand, right? And then it's just.

The whole thing just works so much in tandem.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:34:30

We haven't. We hadn't even talked about Kung Fu consumer got goods and IT products, which is merchandising.

s,: 1930

So even Mickey Mouse as a character obviously also sparks a lot of this merchandise. And because of the Mickey Mouse Club as well. And not just a kind of cartoon, but it's. That's always there.

And again, Michael Eisner is the one who goes, why don't we have Disney stores? Which for a while, like the brick and mortar physical stores becomes big thing gets rolled back. Now it's like online.

Then they had five minutes and I want to say, like, 10 years ago where they tried to reopen stores, and then the pandemic happened again and they closed all of them.

But, yeah, the merchandising is a massive, massive thing that I think easily gets overlooked in all of this because again it's also such an obvious thing now to do. But it wasn't alway.

Liam Heffernan: 00:35:54

Yeah, but I wonder though, and certainly we've seen it maybe accelerated in the last couple of decades where the amount of commercial tie ins that Disney are doing has vastly increased.

Not to mention their acquisitions as you've mentioned of Star wars and Marvel and the Muppets which is a little while further back and then they bought Fox as well. Doesn't that dampen the sort of the Disney magic a little bit when you start to see all these other brands kind of seep in?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:36:23

I think oddly not because I think the where we are now with theme parks, it's all intellectual property. And like Universal scored really big when they got the rights to the Wizarding World of Harry Potter.

And that is also the moment where Disney really starts to step up. And then not coincidentally, I think it's Star wars and Marvel up and running for their parks again.

Marvel is interesting because there's still Marveland in Universal and it's, it's really funny how that ends up getting divvied up.

But this is really, I think when they really push for getting more of these kind of inert acquisitions of like this has a built in fandom and we need to monetize it. I mean they do it with Avatar to a certain degree. Even though Avatar was always an uncertain to me.

I mean to their credit the Avatar area, like the Pandora area, Nanima Kingdom in Florida is very, very nicely done. It's just that the property itself is a dud which the designers also clearly know because there's not much in terms of storytelling.

But it's a nice kind of visual immersive thing. I mean I think that the difference is that most of the time they buy them up, they don't license them as much anymore.

I mean they used to again Star wars was in the parks before Disney on Star wars to license it from Lucasfilm, which is another Michael Eisner thing of like coming in and saying hey, this is a, this works. And also more adult, right? More adult properties, which is something Eisner's very big on.

And he's right because Universal is starting to really build their theme parks in the 90s and then they have Jurassic park and they have all the horror films and before they even get Harry Potter.

Liam Heffernan: 00:38:04

So I think where Universal were clearly doubling down on Orlando because they're, they've, they've just opened their, their, their third theme park and more hotels to go with it. I mean not to Mention they are investing in the UK and that's coming as well, which I'm very excited about. But Disney seems to have.

Disney hasn't opened a new theme park in Orlando since the 90s with Animal Kingdom, but they have opened resorts worldwide in Asia and, you know, in Paris. And it seems to me like Disney's strategy now is very much take over the world.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:38:37

I mean, now. I mean, Disney started opening parks abroad in the 80s, so it's been a while. I mean, Tokyo Disneyland wasn't their idea.

That is also operated by different company. They're actually just licensing from Disney to this day.

But I mean, because of the success that Tokyo Disneyland becomes, like, once again, Michael Eisner is like, we're. We lost a lot of money there. This shouldn't have happened. It also happens before him, but he sees what happens with it.

And this is how we get Euro Disney, which is obviously long been Disneyland, called Disneyland Paris. But yeah, and then he.

And then he immediately goes for China, because opening a theme park in China opens the doors to the market in China, which at that point in time has been closed off to the West. And it's incredibly hard to penetrate as a market. It hasn't really changed. They are still very limited of what they import.

But because Disney strikes up this deal with them, they have a better standing there.

But it takes them a long time, which is where they open Hong Kong before they open 10 years before they open Shanghai, because they kind of have issues making that deal. And I mean, now they said they're gonna build in Arab. United Arab Emirates. I believe so. Which, yeah, I'm still like, is this actually gonna happen?

Honestly? But it was a big thing they could announce at least.

Liam Heffernan: 00:40:00

I guess the great thing about the UAE resort is that they basically have a whole island. Right? I mean, that's new.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:40:09

Yeah. I mean, this is where the money is. I'm still skeptical because I think they will realize very soon the restrictions there.

And then again, they work with the People's Republic of China very well somehow. So they don't seem to have moral scruples about any of this, unsurprisingly.

And I mean, Universal has followed in the footsteps of like, kind of branching out globally with their theme park resorts. I mean, they've had one in Japan for a while, and they will now finally go to Europe.

And the only reason it's taking them so long to go to Europe is also the pandemic, because that's been rumored for at least a decade by now. And I think also the location is a bit trickier.

Liam Heffernan: 00:40:47

This is an American history podcast.

So I want to ask about, you know, Disney as an American brand because the more that it branches out around the world and, and builds new resorts and theme parks in other countries and we still really think of Disneyland as an American brand because most of its theme parks are not in America anymore.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:41:07

I think yes and no.

I think this, that question comes up a lot, particularly with the Japanese, like with Tokyo Disney Resort, because it has been there so long and it had always had that air of like, it's, is this still American? Do Japanese people even care? It's American.

And initially the idea was to bring a piece of America to Japan again, which was an idea by Japanese investors. But because tourism to the US was expensive and like, it was just more bringing this over.

But then it morphed into its own thing and it has its own very unique Japanese fandom. And I think, I mean, again, like, it's. Everyone in the UK I know has grown up with it in Germany and France, all these other places around the world.

So, yeah, but I do think they, they are still American to, to certain degrees of like, how they operate, how they think, how. I mean, you can never fully take the ideology out of it, I think.

I mean, any classic Disneyland park obviously has a lot of like Cold War Americana in it. Like Disneyland, like that.

That's one of the things I've written about is like Disneyland and Anaheim, you can tell Cold War ideology of just the basic structure of it because you have like Americana in Main street usa and you have like this positive idea of the future in Tomorrowland, at least at the time, which is also where Tomorrowland has changed the most.

And then Frontierland, the fact it's called Frontierland and not Westernland, etc, etc, but then obviously that shifts over time both there and abroad. And like, by the time Shanghai Disneyland opens, there is no Main street usa. There's no Frontier Land. There's none of that anymore. So I don't know.

I think they will never stop being an American brand because they're clearly an American company and the way their company culture works is very American. If you work for them, it's absolutely like you can work for Disney in Germany and it's going to be very apparent to you.

They work for an American company, I think. But yeah, I think that shifts to a certain degree with the time, but it doesn't cease to be American.

Liam Heffernan: 00:43:18

When we think of Disneyland then as having this sort of moniker of the happiest place on Earth, how can we even Think about that and all of the theme parks as a whole, when it's losing that homogeneity with each country that it builds in because there are some cultural stamps that are being put on every park around the world. Disneyland is no longer one thing anymore, is it?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:43:45

No, I don't think so. But I think it is like everything else, a brand. People certainly will think of something when they think of Disneyland.

I couldn't tell you what it is because it will probably be very different from what I think of when I think of Disneyland. But it's, it's, it is something they managed to turn it into something people want to visit.

Like it is still, I think, always a bucket list thing on a lot of people's minds.

And I think Walt Disney World for many people particularly maybe also from Europe, because it's the bigger thing and it makes more sense and it's closer to fly to. But I think within the US it hasn't stopped. Everyone wants to take their kids to Disneyland.

I mean, that's a vast exaggeration, but I think there is, there is that X kind of aspirational thing attached to it still. In Japan, it's probably going to be Tokyo Disneyland and not Disneyland in the US And Europe. We might just be happy going to Disneyland Paris.

But it's certainly something that people want to go to once and then decide if they like it or not, I guess. But they want to be able to say we've been there. And then for many people, because it's also expensive and it's become more and more expensive.

But it's always been again like a middle class, upper class thing. It is that once in a lifetime vacation which then puts a lot of pressure on this one week of vacation. That's really it.

They managed to turn it into this brand and again this idea of the happiest place on earth or whatever.

Liam Heffernan: 00:45:18

But yeah, I guess Disneyland's kind of, kind of like the American dream itself, right?

It's, it works if you've, if you've got money and it works if you're, you know, it works if you're white, I guess, but maybe doesn't speak to you so much if you're not.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:45:32

I mean, now the audience has diversified, but the audience is still rich. It's just that more people of color are richer than they were in the 50s. That's really what's changed.

Liam Heffernan: 00:45:44

was only as recently as like: 2009

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:46:00

Yeah, sure. And I mean to a certain degree also I think they're not even that different from the rest of Hollywood in that regard.

Like diversity in Hollywood is still mostly an illusion. It's like it's in it right now. It will only get worse again anyway. Right.

So it's, it speaks to more of like what the US society really does in terms of inclusion.

Liam Heffernan: 00:46:25

And I guess it is really easy to sort of bash Disney because Disney is such a huge, you know, brand. But as you say, sort of looking at them relative to the rest of Hollywood and other media, actually they're not probably any worse than the others.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:46:40

And I think this is again takes us back to kind of the branding and this idea of Disney as magical and this idea of Disney produces children's entertainment or family entertainment.

People like to point the finger at Disney and they're not wrong at it, but they would never point the same finger at like Comcast, Universal or Paramount Global or whatever because they don't even know these things exist. Exist.

The average person doesn't even have an understanding of what Disney owns, but they know Disney is the thing with the animated films and maybe Disneyland.

Liam Heffernan: 00:47:12

But it's kind of a double edged sword then, isn't it, for Disney?

Because in building the, the Disney brand as they have, they've created this huge kind of unrivaled, kind of emotional connection with their audience that other studios haven't. Yeah, but the downside of that is they're held for far more to account for things that other studios aren't, I think.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:47:32

Yeah. And I think that's always been their big task of like protecting this brand at all costs.

And it's still at the forefront of every decision they make, I think.

Liam Heffernan: 00:47:44

In what ways ultimately do you think Disney theme parks deserve, or maybe not to have the title of the Happiest place on Earth?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:47:53

I mean that's just a good tagline, right?

I mean, I think it is possible that like, it's certainly like I've certainly had very happy moments in my life at Disney parks, but also because I enjoyed them and I'm kind of open myself to enjoying them. But I think once again it's a double edged sword because the reality is it's going to be this one week vacation.

The chances are that it's going to be very hot no matter where we go.

The weather doesn't play along depending on where you are and going to be Your family vacation and the children are going to get cranky and you're going to get cranky and it puts a lot of pressure on it, I think in ways that it doesn't end. I mean the times I've I think enjoyed it the most was actually when I visited.

I've been lucky enough to have visited countless times to most of these, I've been to most of these parks countless times that by the time you actually just go there very leisurely, if you like a local, for instance, and you can just stroll in for like two to three hours, that is probably the most fun you will ever have at a Disney park where you don't worry about the lines and you don't worry about whatever because you've already been on it 20 million times and that's a very, very selected few lucky people. And I think. Yeah, and I mean I think it has a lot to offer and if you're into that kind of thing, it certainly is. Yeah.

It has a right to at least be, I think that aspirational for a lot of people if it's the happiest place on earth. I think that's in the eye of the beholder.

Liam Heffernan: 00:49:27

Yeah.

I think we've only really just started a discussion that we could have on Disneyland and Disney and we've got a couple more Disney related episodes coming up on the podcast actually.

And for anyone listening, we are going to be talking soon about the, the theme park that never was, America's history based theme park that was planned for Virginia. So keep an eye out on the.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:49:53

Podcast on for that either because I published a whole paper on it.

Liam Heffernan: 00:49:57

So yeah. Hey you come, come join us when we, when we record you. You are welcome to, to tag along. I'm sure, I'm sure we've all got a lot of opinions on that.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:50:07

Yeah, it's very fascinating. Fascinating. Definitely listen to that episode. It's wild.

Liam Heffernan: 00:50:12

Really is.

And Sabrina, obviously thank you so much for joining us for this discussion and sort of kicking off all of this sort of Disney chat that we're having on the podcast.

For anyone listening, I'm going to leave links to everything that we've talked about in the show notes as well if you do want to read or find out more. But Sabrina, if anyone wants to connect with you directly, where can they do that nowadays?

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:50:36

Mostly on Instagram and Blue sky ever since that replaced Twitter, Twitter or X for most people.

If you just under my full name, Sabrina Mittermayer should come up or you can just shoot me an email which is also you should be easily be able to google me with my university. University of Castle in Germany. Germany. But yeah, I'm. You can find me very easily on the Internet.

Liam Heffernan: 00:51:05

Wonderful. And I I know it's not Disney related, but you did tell me that you you have a podcast, so please plug it. I'll link to it.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:51:12

Anyway, I have a podcast with my friend and colleague Torsten Katka where we discuss rom coms and it's called In Front of Aira. So yeah, if you want to go check that out, it is in English. We're gonna. We just discussed. We've.

I don't know how many episodes we have, but now it's a bunch actually and we're going to continue it soon. And yeah, if you care about romcoms, check that out.

Liam Heffernan: 00:51:32

We will absolutely link to that as well. Sabrina, thank you again. It's been a pleasure having you on the podcast.

For anyone listening, if you enjoy the podcast, please try and leave us a rating and a review wherever you are listening to this and give us a follow as well because then all future episodes will just appear in your feed. And if you really love what we do, follow the link in the show notes. You can support the show from as little as $1.

It helps us keep the lights on and there's so many people involved in making this that they'd all really appreciate that. So thank you all very much for.

Sabrina Mittermeier: 00:52:05

Listening and goodbye Sa.