Who is Frances Perkins?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:17

This week, we are shining a light on one of the most influential women in 20th century America. She was the first woman to serve in a cabinet position in the US Government.

And her efforts to support Jewish refugees during the Holocaust and before has carved a unique legacy in human history. So in this episode, I want to find out more about her life, her work, and her legacy, as I ask, who. Who is Francis Perkins?

Welcome to America, a history podcast.

I'm Niamh Heffernan, and every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places, and the events that make the USA what it is today.

To discuss this, I am joined by a postdoctoral research associate at Brown University and the author of Dear Miss A Story of Frances Perkins Efforts to Aid Refugees from Nazi Germany. That will, of course, link to this book in the show notes. It's a really, really wonderful book and a big welcome to the podcast. Rebecca Brenner.

Graham.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:01:34

Great to meet you, Liam, and thank you so much for having me on your show.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:38

It's really, really great to have you on the podcast. And.

And actually, I feel like we don't really ever touch directly on Nazi Germany or World War II, I think, because it's always felt like a very European issue for an American history podcast. But there is. There's actually so much to discuss in terms of, you know, America's involvement in that. That whole conflict.

And Frances Perkins just feels like such a. Such a great place to start with those discussions.

So to kick us off, my listeners, as well as me really don't know an awful lot about Frances Perkins specifically. So I wonder if you could just give us a bit of background about her early life and her childhood.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:02:19

Frances Perkins was born in: 1880

d people that she was born in: 1882

e in Western Massachusetts in: 1902

One important moment there is that even though she majored in chemistry and physics, she had an American economic history professor named Anna Maesol who required students to visit the mills in Holyoke, Massachusetts, and to write reports on the immigrant working conditions.

So that experience taught Frances Perkins about what working people, especially immigrant communities, must be facing in the US which she had not learned during her relatively privileged childhood growing up in Massachusetts.

Liam Heffernan: 00:03:21

Yeah, I'm really keen to look at these kind of events. And these things that might have happened during these early years of Frances Perkins that might have shaped this worldview and her.

Her drive really to support immigrant communities. So were there any other sort of major events in her childhood that really instilled this in her?

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:03:43

So not necessarily in her childhood, but after college, Frances Perkins had trouble finding a job because there were so few open to college educated women.

In: 1902

So she got one of the few jobs available to college educated women, which is she taught chemistry and physics at the Ferry Hall School for Girls outside of Chicago.

But on the side, she volunteered at Jane Addams Settlement Home, Hull House, which was notable not only for clothing and housing poor people and other people in need, but also for entertaining and educating them, building a sense of community through the labor and energy of relatively privileged college educated women like Frances Perkins. And that experience volunteering at Hull House confirmed for Perkins that social reform work was what she wanted to spend her life doing.

It propelled her move back to the east coast, where she took a job in Philadelphia doing social reform work full time. About a year and a half later, she moved to New York City.

Moved where she became executive secretary of the New York Consumers League, or, sorry, the National Consumers League, the one based in New York.

Liam Heffernan: 00:05:13

Right.

So to understand some context around this, was it normal for women in that time to be as educated and I guess to sort of take on these sort of leadership roles as Frances Perkins did?

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:05:29

No, it was a reflection of her relatively privileged upbringing. Her parents sent her to college at Mount Holyoke.

Not they were particularly feminist, but because they were high enough status, descended from pre American Revolution settlers up in Maine, that it was assumed that their children would become educated and to maintain that status.

But Frances Perkins took advantage of the opportunities that were available to her and tried to channel her own and energy and her labor into improving living conditions and eventually working conditions for less privileged communities.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:12

My assumption before I started doing any research about her is that she must have come from quite a disadvantaged background herself to have that need to kind of pay her own success forward. But it really actually sounds like she had quite a fortunate life from birth. Really.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:06:31

Yeah. Some of the people she worked with came from less privileged backgrounds.

Like later, maybe we'll talk about the Child Refugee Program out of the Department of Labor. She partnered with a woman named Cecilia Rosofsky, who grew up as a child laborer.

e Fair labor standards Act of: 1938

Whereas people that she knew and people she was friendly with, like Cecilia Rosofsky, knew about those causes from direct personal experience.

Liam Heffernan: 00:07:07

Was religion a big part of her life?

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:07:09

Yes. Frances Perkins grew up Christian in New England, and let's see, I always forget which church she was.

New England Congregationalist, which for me, having grown up, I don't know, Jewish in New England. I sometimes mix up the different Protestant denominations. But she grew up New England Congregationalist, and I don't know much about that.

However, through my research, I know that Frances Perkins change faiths to the Episcopalian church when she was living in Chicago, and then that became a pinnacle of her life and career. Her Episcopalian faith was a point of connection with her boss, Franklin D. Roosevelt, also with some of the other people she worked with.

And also it was a place that she could turn to when things were hard.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:01

As someone who doesn't practice religion, this is perhaps a very ignorant question, but it felt like, particularly at that time, there were so many different denominations of the same. I don't know what the right term is, some sort of base religion. It's odd that that would make such a big difference.

But just switching from one denomination to another really does seem to have had a sort of pivotal impact.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:08:27

It wasn't the only thing she changed in Chicago when she was in her 20s. She was really shaping herself, ready for this. She changed her name from Fanny to Frances. On her birth certificate, it says Fanny Perkins.

Fanny Coraly or Corali Perkins. She also. That was when she started playing around with what year she was born, although she had not met FD let's see.

So there was her name, her faith, her birth year, and the fact that she was certain she wanted to work in social justice movements full time.

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:02

So let's move on to her political career, because I'm sure there's a lot to cover in between. But it feels like quite a pivot to go from running a stationary shop to then being the first female cabinet member in the US government.

How did she get there?

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:09:23

In: 1911

She was then appointed. She was recommended by former New York Governor Theodore Roosevelt to lead a statewide commission that investigated factory conditions.

From that position, she joined the Industrial Commission for the State of New York under Governor Al Smith. And that was a big deal.

Like Florence Kelly, the social reformer who had been one of Frances Perkins mentors, advised Francis Perkins to take this position. And Florence Kelly told Perkins how thrilled she was that someone from their own women's social movement would serve on the Industrial Commission.

And Frances Perkins was one. She was typically the only woman or one of two or three women in the room under Governor Al Smith.

Al Smith ran for president in: 1928

However, in the process, he did convince Franklin D. Roosevelt to come out of political hiatus, where he had been recovering from polio in Warm Springs, Georgia. He sprang back into politics, won the governorship of New York, and appointed Frances Perkins to be Industrial commissioner.

So then she's the first woman cabinet secretary in New York, essentially the state secretary of labor, although it was called industrial commissioner.

on hit the next year, in late: 1929

And in early: 1933

During the Roosevelt administration, there had also been movement from women's groups lobbying for the first female cabinet secretary because women had the right to vote had happened for American women barely a decade earlier. And there was pushback. Of course, there was pushback for the first woman cabinet secretary from many directions.

unlikely that a girl born in: 1880

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:22

But do you think that at the time there would have been this enormous amount of pressure on Francis Perkins, as there is for anyone being the first at something, particularly, as there clearly was some pushback in certain areas of the country. Do you think she really felt like she had something to prove?

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:12:45

Yes. And she also. She. She did not have the luxury of being sort of unmasked in these roles, like she was constantly navigating optics and politics.

Her obituary in: 1965

It was always because of her gender, but a lot of times it was also because of her politics. Right. Both things can be true. So there was always pressure on Frances Perkins.

Liam Heffernan: 00:13:35

And I hate to ring or in any way define a woman by the men in her life, but having sort of read your book, I'm keen to understand a bit about how maybe some of her relationships might have shaped or impacted her political views and ambition.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:13:55

I mentioned earlier that her name when she was born was Fanny, and then she changed it to Frances.

York political worker, in the: 1910

When she became the breadwinner of the family, it was important to her to navigate gender politics and optics so that the men in the room would not see her as another man's wife in order to take her seriously. Sometimes she wanted to come across as their mother, actually. So they called her Ms. Perkins.

And then when she became Cabinet Secretary, they called her Madam Secretary. But it was always political what to be called, and she was married.

And if she had had, like, the full comforts and privilege and stability of a standard married, you know, heterosexual married life in the United States, she would not have been the breadwinner for her family. She would not have even found herself in the role of Cabinet Secretary.

But because she had the unusual circumstance of her husband's debilitating bipolar disorder in a time before proper care and treatment, she had even more pressure on her from her family.

Liam Heffernan: 00:15:22

Let's talk a bit more about her political career.

And first for any of us non American listeners, I guess I'm hoping you can first just provide a bit of clarity over what a Labour secretary is actually responsible for.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:15:38

The role of a Cabinet Secretary changes its social priorities based on the administration and the administration's priorities.

So before Frances Perkins became Secretary of labor, the Secretaries of labor were union leaders who believed in protecting American jobs by deporting immigrants. That was what they did in previous administrations.

ties would materialize in the: 1935

The Social Security Act of: 1935

The Fair Labor Standards act combines many of the workplace protections, including a minimum wage and end to child labor, that Frances Perkins had been working on throughout her adult life. I mean, even going back to her early volunteer efforts at Hull House with poor communities and immigrant communities.

So she redirected the Labor Department's energy and resources.

And in doing so, even though what she had in mind was Social Security and fair labor standards, she reformed the immigration system before she dove headfirst into the refugee crisis, which is the focus of my book. But she reformed the immigration system because it was a problem. And the Immigration Naturalization Service was in the Department of Labor.

utive order combining them in: 1933

However, immigration was this problem that just repeatedly kept coming up in various ways. Does that answer your question? My actual answer is that it depends who it is, who's their boss and what the political context is in that moment.

Liam Heffernan: 00:18:05

Yeah, and that's really helpful. But it does also create a little bit of confusion in my mind because America at the time arguably is today in many ways quite xenophobic.

Certainly when you look at the treatment of Japanese Americans during World War II and this, this, this real kind of fear of, you know, outsiders.

But then Frances Perkins was never quiet about the fact that she was, you know, championing immigrant and working class Americans, as you've kind of highlighted. You know, she has a lifetime of, of very active efforts to try and help those communities. What does it tell us about the FDR administration then?

At a time when I think it's easy to think of America as being quite xenophobic to put a figure like Frances in such a senior position.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:19:03

Her pro immigration stance in such a senior position is really reflective of the broader women's groups that, that raised her, that formed the way that she thought and the way that she worked.

And so by appointing the first female cabinet secretary that was popular with some of FDR's constituents and not with some of the others, including the Southern Democrats, were not really into it. It's not just about the representation of a woman. It's about where do they come from and what are their Priorities.

And what does that actually mean for what happens next?

Liam Heffernan: 00:19:48

And I think, you know, I mean, I mentioned before, you know, the pressure that she must have felt considering some of the opposition to her appointment. But it's easy to reduce her career as being kind of the beneficiary of like this sort of tokenism, Right.

Like they have to hire a woman at a time when the public is saying they should. But actually, I think that really diminishes what seems to be an incredibly accomplished life.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:20:15

There is always something else. And you asked me earlier what else the Labor Department did. And she worked on maternal issues too.

She herself had almost died in childbirth the first time she gave birth. The baby died, and she almost died too. So that was always an issue that was important to her from her own experiences.

Also, children's welfare, the Children's Bureau was in the Department of Labor, and it had been, and it became really a powerhouse under Perkins leadership and under the leadership of Katherine Lenroot, who was the head of the Children's Bureau. But yes, to your point, it's not just about appointing a woman. It's about what do they do.

And I do not mean to insinuate that all women supported immigrants. That was definitely not the case.

There were, for example, the patriotic societies, including the Daughters of the Confederacy were anti immigrant at this time.

The Daughters of the American Revolution were anti immigrant at this time, actively campaigning against some of the legislation that Frances Perkins wanted to see passed. But she herself came from a very specific and powerful social reformers women's movement.

Liam Heffernan: 00:21:31

Tell me about your book, because I feel like we haven't really touched on that yet.

And kind of the research you've done about Perkins and her efforts to support refugees during the Holocaust and how that kind of feeds into all of this that we've been talking about.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:21:47

Yes, my book is not a biography. It's a narrative nonfiction about Frances Perkins refugee policy.

In: 1933

e from the Immigration act of: 1917

Under the Secretary of Labor's discretion, the State Department started a turf war with her over that, she won the turf war, but was not able to use charge bonds.

r would then manage from late: 1934

However, child refugee policy, by definition, is a tragedy because it's separating children from their families, and the United States would not let in their parents.

The national origins Act of: 1924

But the spirit of the program was they would even bring over a ship with one child on it. And that was a reflection of the values of this program.

So then, from the mid-: 1930

And she would respond to them in a variety of ways. Sometimes she would say, unfortunately, there was nothing she could do because Congress passes laws, and she can't change the laws.

She can just implement them creatively. Sometimes she would help her correspondent and the refugee that they knew to navigate a complicated immigration system.

And then the way that she saved the most lives, tens of thousands, was by extending people's visas. The visitor visas were controlled by the INS in the Department of Labor.

official policy in the early: 1930

But in: 1938

And in: 1940

Liam Heffernan: 00:25:38

It's reminding me of many years ago when I was fortunate enough to visit the Holocaust museum in Washington, D.C. and I just so happened to be there on a day when a Holocaust survivor and refugee was giving a talk. And hearing his story was incredible.

And Fairly heartbreaking to get that sort of first hand account, but I think we almost take that for granted nowadays because we have so much more understanding over the events of the Holocaust.

And I just wonder how bold was it of Frances Perkins to do what she did at a time when perhaps the facts of the Holocaust and the persecution against the Jews were maybe not fully known.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:26:23

f my book takes place between: 1933

But what Americans now know as the entity that is the Holocaust was not understood.

s evolved like even since the: 1940

And she did not have the context or hindsight that we have now.

Liam Heffernan: 00:27:04

It's interesting though, because during a time of war and even in the years leading up to it, the right thing to do is fairly subjective, right. Because you have what's maybe ethically right, which is to support refugees from anywhere and to help reduce the death toll globally.

But then there's also this sort of protectionism nationally of what's in America's best interests. And you kind of see that in how that played out against their treatment of the Japanese in America during that time.

It just seems like a remarkable thing for Francis and for FDR and everyone who enabled action in that regard. It just seems like an astonishing thing that we maybe don't give enough credit for in hindsight. Apart from obviously in your book.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:27:56

Yeah.

I have not compared the situation of Jewish refugees from Nazism to Japanese Americans who were rounded up and incarcerated or whatever word is proper currently. I mean, they both have so much bigotry behind them, but they're not the same.

The colorism and like that kind of racism against Japanese people in the US was just not seen against the refugees from Nazism. But I don't compare them. I don't find a lot of usefulness or interest in comparing them. Maybe that's just, maybe I'm missing something.

But there was a lot of anti Semitism against the Jewish refugees. And some of Francis Perkins most energetic allies were Jewish activists.

Like the child Refugee program was really brought to her by Cecilia Rosofsky and the German Jewish Children's Aid Incorporated, which was powered by a combination of Jewish women, volunteers and also people on payroll through that organization who just threw themselves into trying to help.

Liam Heffernan: 00:29:13

Yeah, and it's really incredible Reading some of the details of that and just to I guess maybe look a little bit more northwesterly. Your book also mentioned the Alaska plan, and it's something I just really wanted to touch on during this podcast.

And I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about it and why it never really happened.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:29:34

In: 1940

But it was literally a bipartisan joint bill between the House and the Senate to open a separate quota. So not one of the quotas of how many people could enter the US But a separate quota of how many people could enter Alaska from Nazi territory.

It did not make it out of committee. It did not even make it to a floor vote.

, which came out in the early: 2000

had communicated about it in: 1935

So she was one of the people that thought of it.

And the reason that it takes up a whole chapter in my book is because one of the points I'm trying to make is about the odds stacked against helping refugees through American history and systems and social forces. So it's really a case study for that in American history. And I was teaching 11th grade US history at the time.

The US imperializes westward and very little stands in the way, even when people are killed.

But even though the Department of the Interior put forth this thought out plan of using colonizing Alaska for economic development and for military defense, it still could not pass because of the antisemitic and xenophobic backlash from the xenophobic lobbying groups, including the Patriotic Society. So that's really what I take out of that story.

Liam Heffernan: 00:32:03

Yeah. And actually, just for. For context for our international listeners, Alaska wasn't a state at this point. And actually it was. Am I right?

Think about: 1959

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:32:15

Yes.

Liam Heffernan: 00:32:15

memory serves me well. So is: 1959

This bill was initially passed. It kind of. It does. The fact that these ideas, even though they.

They didn't really, you know, progress, the fact that they were even floated about, does suggest just how important Alaska was and sort of the inevitability of its statehood at that time.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:32:44

I would not call it. I don't call anything inevitable, really. I mean, I also don't.

Don't really do counterfactuals, but there's a dystopian novel by Michael Chabin about the Alaska plan. It's called the Yiddish Policemen's Union. It came out sometime in the 20 aughts.

And in that novel he explores what if there was a German Jewish refugee settler colony in Alaska.

And in that narrative, Alaska does not become a state because the US does not want Jewish people or indigenous Alaskans, and it does not want a state of both those groups. So I don't think it was inevitable at all. However, the white settlers in the colonized territory of Alaska opposed the King Havner bill.

I mean, according to their records, unanimously, though, who can measure?

And one of their reasons was that they thought if there was a lot of Jewish settlement in Alaska, that that would decrease its chances of becoming a state.

Liam Heffernan: 00:33:48

That's really interesting. And I guess to bring all of this together, I mean, you mention in your book how Frances Perkins herself as a figure is relatively unknown.

And I think the fact that we've gone on these sort of fairly big tangents and sort of so easily been distracted by the huge world events surrounding Perkins career kind of is testament to the fact that she as a person kind of gets sort of forgotten a little bit in that narrative. So what do you think her legacy is? And I guess also what do you think it should be?

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:34:23

I think that she was most proud of the Wagner act, the Social Security act, and the Fair Labor Standards Act. And refugee policy is a tragedy. Like most people obviously were not able to find refuge and they were murdered.

If we look at specifically her refugee policy, some moments where she was able to help people secure refuge were the child refugee program, specifically the invention of the corporate affidavit so that corporation like the German Jewish Children's Aid could sponsor refugee, not just an individual, and then the visa extensions, and also just like her correspondence and putting in a word for people, sometimes with the State Department or later the Justice Department.

So there are moments where she's able to help, but really the arc of the story is how and why could this person who was trying her best not be able to do more? And that was confusing to me when I first started researching this story.

And I think as a historian, I'm always interested in the questions of how and why.

And it's really the more sinister forces in American history and the ways that they're integrated into systems and structures that prevented the US from being able to save people in most cases.

Liam Heffernan: 00:35:55

And for anyone that might want to, after this episode, go and learn more about Frances Perkins and some of the work that she did. Where could they do that?

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:36:08

ks about her. George Martin's: 1975

by Kirsten Downey came out in: 2009

Dray from it was either late: 2023

I actually have not read it yet, though I've listened to Stephanie Dre talk about it and it's so well researched with a lot of extra, a lot of extra material to engage readers that nonfiction is sometimes unable to do.

Liam Heffernan: 00:37:08

That's great. And of course, the wonderful book Dear miss Perkins, which we'll link to in the show notes.

And I have to say you gave me very generously a little heads up on the book before we recorded. And it genuinely, it's a really great book.

And I think for anyone that has a fascination in either American history or anything that sort of relates to Nazi Germany, the Holocaust in World War II, and anything around that, honestly, it's such a, such a fascinating read. And I'll link to that in the show notes as well as all the other great books that you mentioned, Rebecca.

But as always, I feel like I open this big can of worms and then never have quite enough time to unpack everything. But we are going to wrap up the episode there. Thank you so much, Rebecca, for joining me.

Rebecca, if anyone wants to connect with you, where can they do that?

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:37:59

My website is rebeccabrenergram.com I also spend time on Instagram, Basic Bookstagram, as well as bluesky, which is how we initially connected. Liam My bluesky is the other rbg.

Liam Heffernan: 00:38:13

Yes, yes, all about bluesky these days. I used to plug my X account on here, but I'm a ghost on X nowadays, as I think a lot.

Rebecca Brenner Graham: 00:38:24

Of people are right, I still call it Twitter, referring to the days of old.

Liam Heffernan: 00:38:29

Yeah, that seems appropriately nostalgic. But you. You can find me on on Blue sky and on LinkedIn, or just search for my name and I'll pop up somewhere.

And as always, if you enjoy this podcast, do leave us a rating and a review wherever you're listening and give us a follow as well, because then all future episodes will just appear in your feed.

And if you really want to support the show, you can follow the links in the show notes and you can donate as little as as $1 or support the show monthly. And that really helps us out and and enables us to keep making the show, which is awesome. But thank you so much for listening and good.