Why is Santa So American?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:01

Last year I asked, who is Santa Claus? We discussed the origins and early incarnations of the figure we now understand to be Santa through a more global lens.

So this year I want to continue this conversation, but look specifically at how he became America's poster boy for Christmas and why this could be challenged in future. As I ask, why is Santa so American? Welcome to America, a history podcast.

I'm Niam Heffernan, and every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places, and the events that make the USA what it is today. To discuss this, I am joined by a professor of American literature and culture and deputy Director of the New Area Studies research center at UEA.

In: 2023

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:01:24

Good to be back.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:25

Really good to have you back. It's been a while, so Merry Christmas and we won't leave it so long next time.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:01:32

That's good.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:33

And we're also joined on the podcast by another returning guest.

We've discussed the Oscars, Barbie and Christmas films before, and her doctoral research, Selling Out Santa, focuses specifically on Hollywood Christmas films in the age of McCarthy. So I'm delighted to welcome back to the show. Vaughan Joy hi.

Vaughn Joy: 00:01:52

Thank you for having me. It's nice to be back.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:54

It's a real pleasure to have you back, Vaughan. And yeah, it's nice to actually talk about Christmas films. We haven't done it as much as we should, I think.

Vaughn Joy: 00:02:03

I'm excited. I'm ready to go.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:05

Okay. Right. Obviously we're going to talk a bit about Santa and why he maybe is or isn't so American.

But firstly, Tom, I just wonder if you can tell us about the first known depictions of Santa in American media.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:02:21

of a recognizable Santa, then: 1821

That's when a children's book called the Children's A New Year's Present to the little ones from 5 to 12 is published in New York. And that book is a poem which tells us about a guy who's called Old Santa Claus. So it's spelled slightly differently.

Santa Claus is one word and it's got an e instead of an A at the end of Santa. But nonetheless, what's kind of amazing, I think is how fully formed Santa Claus is in that poem. So he arrives in a sleigh pulled by a reindeer.

He's dressed in red as it goes. He leaves presents in stockings, and he visits a family while they're sleeping. So, in a sense, the whole root of the mythology is fully formed there.

ot the author of that book in: 1821

So, on the one hand, certainly there had been references to the figure of Santa Claus in different contexts before this point. But really, this is the moment where I think you can say, here is Santa Claus stepping onto the scene. And so that's.

I think: 1821

You know, Twas the Night Before Christmas and All through the House, et cetera, et cetera, which, again, is a really influential exploration of Santa's visit to a family. Right. So, you know, we all know that poem still. It gets, you know, trotted out every year and was. Was popular throughout the 19th century.

So that's: 1823

But certainly once you've got that poem out there, then I think it's fair to say that Santa Claus is a presence in American culture. Regional to begin with, but bit by bit, almost like a kind of viral trend, I think you might say.

Santa Claus spreads across America and then, of course, across the globe.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:47

I was going to ask about how Santa, or certainly these early depictions of Santa differed from, you know, other versions of the Santa figure around the world. But actually, you mentioned that this started quite regionally. Were there any differences, even within America as to how Santa was depicted?

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:05:04

Yeah, yeah.

That's one of the wonderful things I think that I found putting together this anthology of all the earliest depictions of Santa Claus in print that I could find find is that people, People really spend time working out who Santa is, what he looks like, where he lives, how he makes his toys. You know, all these classic questions about Santa.

You can see people working them out on the page with different results, some of which stick around, some of which fall away.

So, for example, there is, within New York itself, there's quite an investment in keeping Santa Claus connected to the kind of Dutch colonial tradition and the figure of St. Nicholas, who, of course, on some genetic level, Santa Claus is related to. Although I think, you know, Santa Claus is a different figure. Santa Claus is an American original, for all that. There is an echo there.

So some people, when they're depicting Santa, kind of keep him within a kind of Dutch colonial framework, you know, in terms of his outfit, his appearance. Some really influential illustrations early on where he's quite gobliny.

in the book oil painting from: 1837

's Weekly magazine as late as: 1858

People are working, trying to work out exactly what Santa's going to look like, and slowly, you can see that coalesce into the kind of figure that we end up with by about the middle of the 19th century, most famously through the illustrations of Thomas Nast, who's also a political cartoonist.

And according to his biographer, he bases a lot of what Santa looks like on a figure, the figure of Belsnickel, who I think we talked about last time, who is a kind of Pennsylvanian, German American figure who is kind of like Santa Claus, but a bit wilder. So there's that element in there.

time of the Civil war in the: 1860

Liam Heffernan: 00:07:26

Do you think there's a correlation here between the fact that America itself was becoming a lot more industrialized, communication was becoming a lot quicker, a lot more cohesive across the nation?

So actually, this cultural division around the country was a little bit more narrowed, and that's where it was easier to maybe have a more unified national idea of Santa Claus?

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:07:48

Yes and no. I think absolutely.

So, on the one hand, priority print technology and industrialization and the kind of development of communication networks and publications absolutely spur that on.

aus arrives in Britain in the: 1850

And you will have people looking back from around the turn of the 20th century saying, we didn't know anything about Santa Claus then we read this American book and we all wanted to hang stockings up. Right? So you can see the way in which that spread. But I think bear in mind as well that you know.

So Thomas Nast, as I say, probably the most famous visual interpreter of Santa Claus in this period. His first illustration of Santa Claus comes in the middle of the Civil War. And it is specifically a kind of propagandist image.

It's Santa Claus coming to give presents to Union soldiers. And actually, during the Civil War, plenty of Confederate writers have an animosity towards Santa.

They think he is a kind of a Northern stooge, if you like.

away, but it's present in the: 1860

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:06

Okay, so, Vaughan, I'll bring you in here because obviously, with the birth of Hollywood and the mass communication industries, that must have had quite a big influence on the proliferation of Santa in the media, right?

Vaughn Joy: 00:09:22

It did, for sure. But I would probably say even before film commercialism got in there first.

ced Santa Claus in the, like,: 1880

That's when it really started to be rooted in a more streamlined kind of national overtaking, I'll say, of such a cultural phenomenon as shopping at a department store.

And then, yes, film does get into it, especially in that vein of advertising, of using Santa in this kind of specific phrase that I use in one of my articles that's escaping me at the moment. But he is kind of free of the production of commercialism, but also a representative of commercialism.

So he occupies this nice kind of liminal ground of buy the things because it's a good thing to do that Santa wants you to do. And it's a cultural communal thing to do. But also we're going to profit off of that. And Hollywood really takes off with that.

Claus is a British film from: 1898

m industry in Hollywood until: 1907

She's a poor girl and she is invited into this wealthier young boy's home and she sees all of his presents and he explains Santa to her and she says, ain't no way. I've never seen this Santa Claus. I've never gotten a gift from him.

And the boy takes it upon himself to kidnap Santa at gunpoint on Christmas Eve and drag him to the little girl's house to, to give her a Christmas.

So not only do we get this amazing first introduction of Santa in Hollywood, but it's also a really complicated class dynamic and question about Santa and the moral tie of if you're good, you get presents. But how do we square that away with families in poverty? Very, very interesting stuff.

Liam Heffernan: 00:11:57

I mean, I need to try and find that short film. That's mad. But one thing that just immediately sprang to mind in all this is why did no one think of copywriting or somehow like trademarking Santa?

Because that would have been a gold mine commercially. Right?

Vaughn Joy: 00:12:14

That's a great question.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:12:15

That's a great question. And I mean, I think was there, was there IP in those days? Could you copyright character?

I suppose, I mean, I guess there was plenty of rip offs in those days of popular authors like Dickens. Say there's plenty of merchandising done off the back of Dickens characters. I suppose. Yeah. It's an interesting one. Liam.

Vaughn Joy: 00:12:37

, because I am cynical and in: 2025

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:48

Yeah.

Vaughn Joy: 00:12:49

But I also think that Santa does occupy that space, that kind of liminal space of he is a figure of commercialism, but he's also an American icon. And can you copyright the American flag? And I would say Santa Claus is as American as the American flag.

So that's, it's a really interesting question.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:13:10

Also, I think in a sense that's one of the reasons why he does become such a significant figure in popular culture.

I mean, arguably, could you make a play and say the most important figure in popular culture, given the kind of economic heft of what Santa Claus does every year? Because actually it becomes a kind of communal.

That's what I love to see, to trace in the anthology that I've been working on on Santa Claus, because it becomes a communal creative enterprise amongst American, you know, writers and illustrators.

And in a sense, the reason that I think that he, that he develops this kind of such A rich world around him is because these writers iterate and iterate on him and are able to play with the mythology and, you know, as I say, some things become tradition, some things become creative dead ends, but nonetheless, there is that sense of playfulness.

And actually, if we think about the whole world that surrounds Santa, again, that's in a sense, maybe one of the most important fantasy worlds that have been created. We don't necessarily think of it in those terms, but in terms of its cultural impact and its cultural range and especially that's amazing.

Coming from a time and a place in 19th century America is not a time that we think of as being particularly concerned with the fantastic in popular cultural terms. In fact, there's quite an antipathy towards the fantastical lingering over from the Puritan era.

So again, the fact that this extraordinary fantasy world, this place of the imagination that all of us occupy at some point in our lives, give or take, you know, akin to, you know, Narnia or Middle Earth, whatever, you know, however you want to shake it out, you know, I think that's also an amazing testament to the fluidity of what's going on in culture at that point. And the fact that Santa isn't copyrighted, I guess, is probably really important for that process to happen.

Liam Heffernan: 00:16:04

There has to be this element of sort of homogenizing the figure of Santa. Right. So that it appeals to enough to everyone, rather than a lot to no one, right?

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:16:13

Yes. And I think you can. It's quite early that that happens.

Certainly by late: 1840

Even at that point, you can see people puzzling out. You're like, but you know, what? Where did he come from? Like, where did this thing. Where did this thing come from that we're all doing now?

ou get a lot of people in the: 1850

And you also get the sense that certain cultural leaders get very almost scared at that point at the power that Santa seems to be accruing.

Because I came across quite a number of articles from exactly that point pointing out to children that, you know, Santa Claus isn't real, guys, which is. Which is very interesting to see people addressing that kind of commentary to children. But like, but it's but it's there.

You know, they're saying Santa Claus isn't real. Remember, he's not. He's not God, you know, so, you know, don't, don't get things confused here.

So it's very bracing at that point to see people directly addressing children to kind of disabuse them of the idea of Santa Claus. Whereas by the end of the century, in famous articles like, you know, yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus.

From the late: 1890

So, you know, by the late 19th century, you can see a real investment in making sure that children really do believe in Santa Claus as a, as an ideal. I think we can say as much as a real figure.

Liam Heffernan: 00:17:59

We all know Santa isn't really real. Spoiler alert for any kids listening to this. But.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:18:05

But we preface this episode with that.

Liam Heffernan: 00:18:08

Yeah, yeah, disclaimer at the start. But, you know, we, we all kind of partake in this partial sort of self delusion to ourselves as, you know, as, as we're adults.

But, but also, you know, we, we gladly partake in kind of helping our kids to believe in Santa. And then they grow up and start to question it, and we never really tell them that Santa doesn't exist.

They just kind of figure it out, and then the lie kind of goes on and on. I mean, is that healthy?

Vaughn Joy: 00:18:37

That's something that has been discussed for as long as Santa has been around. And I think it's down to personal preference. I guess there are pros and cons for believing in it.

And we're perpetrating a lie, or however you want to phrase it.

But I think it really comes down to, for me, that it's just fun and a sweet little thing that, like, America doesn't have a lot of myths, a lot of founding myths, a lot of original myths. And it's a very sweet thing that our society has collectively created, one that we all adhere to or largely adhere to. It is a very secular myth.

Also, you don't have to be Christian to be part of this, like, American Christmas Santa tradition.

So I think it's just a very sweet, almost healthy sign of American society that we do have this playfulness with a mythology that we are willing to engage in. And when you frame it that way, there is a question of, like, how many ancient Greeks believed that the minotaur was real, right? Like.

Or is it a guiding myth? Is it a fable? Is it something that builds national kind of civic understanding among each other about generosity and kindness and goodwill?

Or are we lying to kids and is that damaging for their psyche? I don't know, but I think it's playful and I like to lean into that more optimistic side of this is a healthy sign of society that.

That we can do this together.

Liam Heffernan: 00:20:11

I guess to sort of. To go back to your earlier point about that short film about the poor girl who never got a gift from Santa.

The problem with the myth of Santa in this idea that if you're a good boy or girl, then you'll get presence and if you're not, you'll get coal. It leans into these very real socioeconomic lines that really leans into these bigger ideas about American success, right?

Vaughn Joy: 00:20:39

It absolutely does. And it also, it depends on what kind of the myth that you are kind of aligning with. There are plenty of Hollywood versions and literary and poetry.

A visit from St. Nick. He does not have a moral obligation for children. So there are plenty that do both. And it's up to you, kind of what you want to tell your kids.

I think miracle on 34th street from 47 is a real line in the depiction of Santa kind of publicly. And in that one there is a like slight kind of inclination towards you have to be good to get a toy.

But there's really no punishment that Santa doles out in that film. And it's more along the lines of believing and not believing.

And in my new book, I take a very cynical approach to that and say that it was the filmmakers trying to drive up sales for Macy's, which. Which in the film the executives and Macy's also admit that that is what they are doing.

But I do think it's a kind of line in the sand of kids deserve toys. They deserve the toys that they want. They don't deserve corporations telling them this is the toy you want.

And those are important, helpful images, I think, to think of the children as the center of Santa Claus mythology rather than many other iterations that there have been.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:22:10

And I think you could argue that there's plenty of points in American history for my purposes in this collection, certainly at the end of the 19th century, when you've got economic depression, you've got Gilded Age disparities of wealth, you've got a lot of urban poverty going on, that Santa Claus really does get co opted as a figure in the progressive fight against poverty. And so, for example, there's I mean, this is not unique, but I have quite a number of articles by a woman called Nell Nelson.

That was her pseudonym, but she was a kind of muck raking American journalist of the Nellie Bly mould working in New York.

And every year she would be the figurehead, if you like, of the New York Evening World's charity drive to collect money to set up Christmas trees and distribute presents for New York street children.

And really, she pushes hard on creating a kind of idea of Santa Claus as a figure of charity and philanthropy, who was a model for how we should behave, and as far as you can tell, did an amazing job of raising money and distributing presents for a number of years at the end of the 19th century in New York.

So on the other hand, you could argue Santa Claus really has done good things in the world, not just about satiating individual desires of wealthy children, but actually being a spearhead for benevolent action in the world.

Liam Heffernan: 00:23:36

What do you think these sort of modern depictions of Santa, really, why are they so effective, especially to adults? Is it sort of a nostalgia? Is it tugging on something just that we want to feel? Or is it, I guess, again, with a slightly cynical hat on?

Is there just something a little bit more kind of commercially motivated from the studios that still ride the coattails of Santa's image?

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:24:05

I would just say just to start things in the 19th century. I mean, that's not new.

That's something that's been happening since, in a sense, you could say, the first print depiction of Santa Claus, that people have taken a character and have tried to work out how they can reinvent the wheel and embellish that mythology and give us a different version. And you can see people working through the different tropes that we're used to in popular culture. So, for example, how does he make all his toys?

So someone is the first person, and that person is probably Caroline Butler in this book called the Little Messenger Birds, someone is the first person to give us Santa's workshop. I mean, that's an image that we're so used to.

But until Caroline Butler sits down having to produce some copy for a Christmas journal Christmas book and thinks, okay, let's see, how does he do it? Okay, he's got lots of little people shut up in a workshop somewhere. Then we don't have Santa's workshop. And then, okay, fine, where does he live?

y somewhere cold. And then in: 1863

And then that kind of establishes the idea that he's living in somewhere northerly, somewhere cold. And these things go on throughout. Throughout the century.

aus becomes a big deal in the: 1870

Of debate within popular culture about what exactly the role of Mrs. Claus should be, as in, you know, what the role of American women should be inside and outside of the home, more broadly. So I would say, yes, you might think there's a kind of.

There is obviously a commercial imperative to keep producing stories about Santa Claus, but that's also how we got Santa Claus, but there was a commercial imperative to keep telling stories about him. And that's how we've got the figure that we know today.

What I think is more interesting is whether any of the modern innovations stick over the coming decades and centuries. Which ones hang around, which ones embellish the myth, and which ones get, in a sense, forgotten. But they're all part of the same process.

Liam Heffernan: 00:26:16

I think that's what I think is quite interesting, because it doesn't feel like it's very easy anymore to add to that myth.

VAUGHAN I'm gonna look at modern Christmas films like Arthur Christmas, that try and give Santa a tech upgrade in this big space spaceship esque vessel to deliver toys. You know, it's never really stuck. We. We cling on to that sort of old, sort of traditional idea of who he is. Right?

Vaughn Joy: 00:26:43

I. I think we definitely do. And I think it's helpful for the tech upgrade side to remember where the Santa Claus myth did come from, because it.

It really is kind of an opposite end of the spectrum from Dickens. Right?

These are the two, like, American Christmas ends of the spectrum, where you have a Dickensian, like, we're gonna threaten you with fear until you change your ways and become a better person, or, Santa, we're gonna give you a gift as an incentive for being a good person. And those. Those are the kinds of, like, ends. And both of those are rooted in this, like, Victorian idea, the, like, popular image in our mind.

And there have been attempts to update those things, for sure.

I think, like I said, Miracle on 34th street is a really successful way to bring him Forward into the 20th century as this kind of, like, department store mascot rather than a toy maker in the North Pole. So we have a better sense of him in, like, an art deco building in New York rather than just in the North Pole.

But the tech upgrades and recent imagery of Santa kind of skips backwards to Victorian and tries to update him from there a lot of the time, which I don't think is very helpful because trying to imagine that leap of like your little Santa in a reindeer drawn sleigh now having turbo boosters is like too big of a jump. That said, I think there are some successful versions of that where the Christmas Chronicles with Kurt Russell.

I think that's a fantastic upgrade and also has objectively the most attractive Santa of any imagery of Santa Ever and Mrs. Claus, both of them.

So, like, there are some interventions that work with the upgrade, but they also have to upgrade the Santa, I think, where he's like leather clad and like wearing sunglasses. And it's great.

l revisits to Santa, like the: 1994

They updated with a belief in God rather than a belief in Santa or a technicality in the US Postal system being the way out of the kind of court jam at the end. And those kind of like interventions with Santa just, I think, don't land in the same way. Like Tom said, Santa is not God.

And there's, there's a problem when you bring them together because then if you don't believe in one, where does that leave the Catholic Church? You know? So, yes, I think there's a real issue with trying to update Santa. And again, it's not a new one.

There have been many, many, many iterations of Santa and only some have stuck. So we have some survival ship bias, I think, about the 19th and 20th centuries when we're thinking about what's going to stick now.

And I just, I don't see the like turbo booster version of the sleigh being one that does stick.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:30:13

this exact same issue in the: 1890

So, for example, the telephone, the introduction of the telephone is a big deal and in people's lives. So of course that gets incorporated into the Santa story.

called hello Santa Claus from: 1886

And it's from a children's magazine, so it's a wonderful illustrated page where it's just the pictures that Santa Claus took, took on his route. And I think in a sense, it doesn't matter if the Turbo Boost version sticks.

The point is that we live in a technological world and Santa changes to, you know, reflect our own experiences with the world and technology say. So in a sense, we always, you know, Santa has to change because we change and the world around us changes.

Liam Heffernan: 00:31:22

So.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:31:22

And I think there is something in that wrestling with technology which tells a lot about our own. Our own moment, whether or not we. That, you know, obviously becomes a concrete part of the Santa myth. It's certainly a part of our own moment.

So I think having Santa, you know, wrestling with an iPhone or with AI, probably soon AI, Santa can't be long, can it, etc. Etc. Then I think that's because that's what we're dealing with in society at this point.

And Santa is very much about reflecting the world that is depicting at any given point.

Liam Heffernan: 00:31:55

Do you think that there's also an element of.

Because you mentioned earlier about, you know, Santa being sort of held up as a sort of charitable figure to encourage, you know, goodwill and around the holidays and, you know, we spoke as well about this sort of mutual kind of suspension of disbelief when we sort of promote the myth of Santa, there's something that feels a bit more aspirational about a figure that we know isn't that plausible. And I feel like when you talk about things like the Turbo boosted slay, the.

Any sort of technology that feels very, very real and very present day, it almost gives him a relatability that we don't really want. And actually it removes that kind of aspirational aspect in the figure of Santa and what he represents.

Vaughn Joy: 00:32:42

Yeah, that's a great point. And I think that's why the kind of marginal upgrades of like the Kurt Russell Santa work and like massive tech upgrade does not.

s and early: 2000

Like those are like incremental increases, I think in the Santa myth that bring us forward with it and it's still reflecting a bit of real life while not disrupting the balance of that suspension of disbelief, if that makes sense.

Liam Heffernan: 00:33:29

Yeah. It almost feels like we're beyond the point of creating or adding to the. To the myth of Santa from anything remotely based in real life.

And we're sort of. We're using the current, commonly agreed myth of Santa and just sort of building on that, and it kind of. We. And because of that, I guess the.

The myth of Santa gets a little bit more removed from reality every time. That gets kind of added to, which kind of contradicts what you've said before. But it just. It feels like we're no longer.

The starting point is the current version of the myth.

Vaughn Joy: 00:34:02

t it as much as possible. The: 2019

I think it's one of the best reincarnations of Santa in that it fully invents a mythology and an origin story for Santa that is separate from that common understanding that you're talking about, Liam, that kind of, like, origin point for our modern idea of Santa being the amalgamation of all of the Santas that have come before.

What Klaus does is really create a whole new mythology and uses a lot of the touchstones that are in our collective understanding of Santa, like letter writing and him bringing a wooden toy and him wearing a red coat. The ho, ho, ho. Like. It answers questions about all of those cultural touchstones while giving them completely original origins.

And I think that's definitely one of the most successful modern Santa iterations, because it's so thoughtful about why are these things part of the mythology? And can we be playful with that and still make a really beautiful, touching story that can be a new common ground for kids today.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:35:29

I might throw into the mix as well. Not.

I would say definitely not one of my favorite representation of Santa, but the Mel Gibson Santa movie Fat man, which did not have a huge amount of cultural penetration, but I think, nonetheless, you know, was a really interesting and very unusually toned version of Santa Claus, which. Which is part Western.

I think you could hear definitely that was Santa Claus as Western, you know, involves the military industrial complex at certain points, had a lot to say in one way or another about certain things that were going on in contemporary American life through a sant who's also, you know, there's a bit of an Odin thing going on there with him as well. You know, there's a lot in that film.

So I Think, you know, Sant is still a character that like any genre at this point, I think you can still absolutely do interesting novel things by playing with the tropes that we're familiar with, even if they don't become part of the defining elements of the character. I think maybe more than ever, Santa is almost ripe for that kind of genre explanation.

I mean, I thought Violet Night, the kind of Santa Claus action film was also, you know, had to have some interesting elements to it, which again, did some interesting stuff with Santa, rooting him in a kind of, again, a kind of Viking warrior tradition. So I think there are interesting spaces actually where.

Well, especially now as much as ever, because certainly, you know, the 19th century is full of reiterations of Santa in unusual ways, but I think the 21st century has been a pretty interesting space for reimagining Santa and as I say, kind of playing with Santa as genre, if you like. You know, that bears some thinking about.

Liam Heffernan: 00:37:15

We're very much in the world of, you know, in the influencer generation. So I'm going to talk about Santa as an influencer here.

And when the world and, you know, America is, is becoming a lot more inclusive and embracing diversity. I realize some of the irony of that in the current landscape in America.

But, you know, nonetheless, I wonder if Santa's influence over Christmas and over the holiday season might start to dwindle.

Vaughn Joy: 00:37:47

precedent for that. Being the: 1950

Hollywood kind of abandoned Santa Claus in that Cold War era, which is what my book is about is the departure from the two kind of ends of the spectrum being Dickens and Santa as part of the American Christmas tradition in that era. And I think there are a lot of interesting questions that come out of that mainly. Or why and what replaces it.

And I think the what replaces it is a real kind of toned down version of films that we already had being rom coms and musicals and comedies that then just kind of put this veneer of Christmas over them and just say, well, it's Christmas, so that's our deadline for falling in love or something. And that, that sets its own kind of formula. And part of the Christmas film genre that we obviously still have. Hallmark just churns them out.

There are hundreds and hundreds of Hallmark films a year. But the why is.

Is the question that we can turn over forever and also relates to our moment right now when we're in this, this modern McCarthyist era. My answer to it is that Santa especially, but Christmas largely represent these, these values of generosity and goodwill.

And community and caring for one another that don't gel with McCarthyist ideas.

And when that era is so defined with fear and suspicion of anyone being generous as they might be getting you in some way commies under the bed and all that doesn't work with Christmas. So you get a really interesting new version of what Christmas means as a result of that.

And I think we're definitely going to be seeing some very new iterations of Christmas over the next few years, especially from Hollywood. And Tom said that we have had many different versions of Santa and many interesting ones.

And I am adding that the 21st century has not been a very stable political time in America and that's part of why we are getting such interesting interactions with Santa as a genre. So I think we will be seeing a lot of fascinating Christmas content over the next few years. For sure.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:40:20

It's kind of fascinating when you think about it, because Christmas certainly has been a part of the culture wars of the last couple of decades, let's say.

Yes, I mean, you know, the whole Merry Christmas thing, the whole war on Christmas trope, etc, etc, but I think probably Santa hasn't been co opted that much. It's difficult to think of Santa being employed in a culture war fashion.

I think maybe the one thing I can think of is there was a children's book where Santa is depicted as being married to a Mr. Claus. And I think that's foul of a few book bads. But you know, it's interesting that Santa Claus has almost kind of remained neutral in the culture wars.

I mean, if anything, I guess Santa's on the woke side of the culture wars.

So maybe it'll be interesting to see if, especially over the next few years whether or not we do get a kind of a culture war Santa if we do get a kind of some difficult to imagine, but very plausible, I guess, kind of right wing evocation of Santa.

I think also Megyn Kelly also had a critique about representations of black Santa Claus, which is, you know, a tradition that goes back way into the 19th century.

But I think for her it was an affront to project Santa Claus as black, an imaginary figure who of course does not actually exist in any way, shape or form. So yes, I think that that might be one to watch actually to see whether, whether.

t did in the Civil war in the: 1860

Vaughn Joy: 00:41:47

I was going to say I found it very fascinating that you said that earlier in this discussion that the south had this kind of prejudice against Santa as a northern Figure. I think that's really kind of the heart of it. The modern GOP is taking a lot of cues from Confederate America.

And I don't think that Santa really gels with the values and ideas of those politics. So, yeah, a new Santa would be very fascinating from the far right.

I have some ideas of what it would be, but it wouldn't be the Santa that has become the homogenized figure of American tradition in the 19th and 20th centuries. For sure, it would be a very different kind of Santa.

Liam Heffernan: 00:42:35

And to that point, and to I guess bring this whole episode full circle, what do you think are the defining characteristics of an American Santa?

Vaughn Joy: 00:42:47

Well, I would say the blanket ones of generosity, goodwill, kindness, community, compassion. Those for sure.

For Santa, the bold faced American in front of it would also be commercialist and a salesman and kind of stand in, in a commercial for your local used car lot. You know, like there's. He's used in those ways.

So all of the good stuff and also the commercialist capitalist stuff that goes with it in the American tradition.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:43:23

For me. Yeah, I mean, he's. I mean, that's what's interesting, isn't it? I think you could say, you know, absolutely, Santa Claus is American.

I think that's, that's one of the things that I think is key. Right. He is an American creation. Whatever, whatever else he might have taken from the old world, he is all American.

And his and his global reign is still rooted in American culture. But there is so much of him that does seem antithetical to so many directions of travel in American culture.

You know, he's a benevolent, peaceful, kind man, A rare popular culture figure.

In that sense, I think that he's a man who is kind of often shown as being emotional, caring, loving, kind, and helps others without any concern for recompense. So, you know, as an avatar, you know, he's pretty unique, I think.

Liam Heffernan: 00:44:09

And you know, he wears Republican red, so you know, that will appease the.

Vaughn Joy: 00:44:12

Right or commie red.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:44:16

Yes.

Liam Heffernan: 00:44:17

Yeah, yeah.

Vaughn Joy: 00:44:19

That was the Cold War sense of it for sure, I think.

Liam Heffernan: 00:44:23

Well, before we get into that, we should probably wrap this episode up, but. Tom Vaughan, thank you both for joining me again on the podcast.

Really appreciate your time and for anyone listening, if you want to find out more, then we'll leave links to everything that we've mentioned in the show notes. Vaughan, I didn't even mention the fact that you have a book coming out, so I guess tell us about that.

Vaughn Joy: 00:44:47

bout that mid century moment,: 1946

an Slept here, the apartment,: 1960

And it's an era of tumult and fear and suspicion and blacklisting in Hollywood.

So my book is called Selling Out Hollywood Christmas films in the McCarthy era and looks at what, what happened here in Hollywood and how did that tumult eke into the culture, Specifically looking at this case study on Christmas films from that period.

Liam Heffernan: 00:45:56

Yeah, yeah. And it's a great read. And I'll link to that in the show notes as well. And Tom, remind everyone where people can get your books.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:46:04

Yes, Searching for Santa's published by Boiler House Press, but should be available wherever you get your books. What a year for Santa. Hey, what great companion pieces as well. That takes you. That takes you. That's all.

That's, that's Santa from beginning to the high point of the mid 20th century right there.

Vaughn Joy: 00:46:21

Yeah, it's all you need. And my conclusion ends with Die Hard. So really, practically today.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:46:27

That's great.

Vaughn Joy: 00:46:27

What more could you want?

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:46:28

What more could you want? That is it. That's the complete Santa right there.

Liam Heffernan: 00:46:32

Well, yeah. On that note, thank you so much for listening to the podcast and Tom, of one, thanks again for joining me.

Remember, wherever you are listening to the podcast, do leave us a rating and a review and follow the show so that you get all future episodes in your feed automatically. And if you really love what we do, you can follow the links in the show notes to support the show from as little as $1.

And everyone involved will really appreciate that. Thank you all so much for listening. Happy holidays and goodbye.

Vaughn Joy: 00:47:00

Merry Christmas.

Thomas Ruys Smith: 00:47:01

Merry Christmas, Sam.