bonus
BONUS: Is Social Media a Blessing or a Curse for Democracy?
In this lively bonus episode, we hit the rewind button to dig deeper into our earlier talk on the Internet’s influence on American politics, focusing on the undeniable role of social media. Liam and the brilliant Jennifer Stromer-Galley dive into the vibrant and sometimes volatile world of Twitter, TikTok, and Reddit.
They contemplate whether social media is merely a tool for political communication, or if it has morphed into something far more complex, shaping narratives and influencing outcomes in ways we’re just beginning to understand.
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Special guest for this episode:
- Jennifer Stromer-Galley, a Professor in the School of Information Studies at Syracuse University. She is former president of the Association of Internet Researchers, and she is author of the widely-acclaimed book Presidential Campaigning in the Internet Age.
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Highlights from this episode:
- In today's episode, we dove deep into how social media, especially platforms like Reddit and TikTok, has reshaped the way we consume news and engage in political discourse.
- We discussed how Trump and Musk are leveraging social media to influence American politics, creating both opportunities and concerns for democracy.
- Reddit's unique community-focused nature allows for more extensive discussions, setting it apart from quicker, more superficial platforms like Twitter.
- We also touched on the impact of campaign financing in politics, highlighting how money matters more than ever in shaping electoral outcomes and candidate viability.
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Additional Resources:
Presidential Campaigning in the Internet Age by Jennifer Stromer-Galley
Jennifer Stromer-Galley - iSchool | Syracuse University
Social Media: Are TikTok videos the way to win an election? - BBC News
12 States With Teens' Social Media Regulation- Is Yours One of Them?
Facebook, Cambridge Analytica scandal: Everything you need to know
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And if you like this episode, you might also love:
What Was the Constitutional Convention?
Why Does the President Only Serve Two Terms?
Is the President Above the Law?
How Has the Internet Shaped American Politics?
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Thank you for listening to our podcast. It's a labor of love by an American history nerd and some smarter folk. Making it does come at a small cost so if you'd like to help:
- Individuals - support the show with a one-off or monthly donation: https://america-a-history.captivate.fm/support
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Your support helps us keep the show running, and it is highly appreciated!
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Transcript
Hello, and welcome to this bonus episode of a History recorded straight after our recently published episode, how has the Internet Changed American Politics?
Speaker A:I'm joined now by the guest from that episode, Jennifer Stromer Galley, to discuss this a little bit more.
Speaker A:Jenny, thank you so much for hanging on.
Speaker B:You're welcome.
Speaker A:I really enjoyed chatting with you.
Speaker A:I feel like we should rename this episode, though, to How Has Social Media Changed American Politics?
Speaker A:Because that was very much the skew of our discussion, wasn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:And I'm really keen to know because we've talked a lot about what other people do and why and what Trump and Musk are doing.
Speaker A:Where do you get your news from?
Speaker B:I get my news from the New York Times, cnn, Washington Post.
Speaker B:Like everybody else, you know, I follow what people post on social media, Blue Sky X to see what, you know, what they're reading, what they're sharing, what concerns them.
Speaker B:Interestingly, my spouse is a software engineer and he also shares a lot of news stories with me of things.
Speaker B:He follows some tech platforms, including Y Combinator and so, and Reddit, actually, I mean, I think is another kind of interesting place to get news and kind of what people are paying attention to, what's concerning them.
Speaker A:I think it's really interesting that you mentioned Reddit because Elon Musk, I mean, he makes the news every day at the moment, but he was particularly headline worthy after his gestures at the inauguration, which a lot of people have said look like a Nazi salute.
Speaker A:Your thoughts on that, whatever they are.
Speaker A:But I'm just keen to know the power of Reddit here because they've really come out, enforced many official channels on Reddit for different companies, have started using that to say that they're excluding any Twitter links or X links, I should say.
Speaker A:And it's really become a platform for people to make these kind of online protests against behavior like that, hasn't it?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah, Reddit is interesting and it doesn't get a lot of attention, even though it does have a very large user base.
Speaker B:One of the affordances of Reddit that I really like is that you get to really have kind of longer arguments or discussions.
Speaker B:You know, Facebook, Twitter, they are much shorter, I don't know, relatively.
Speaker B:And you know, you're kind of broadcasting out, whereas Reddit feels like it's a smaller, it's more of a community feeling.
Speaker B:You know, you've got these different topics, the subreddits and, you know, people who follow those subreddits.
Speaker B:And it's a kind of usually a core group of people.
Speaker B:So you get to know these folks and engage, I think, in like, more elaborate discussion than I think is possible, or that is typical in other social media platforms.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, you know, Reddit, I think, plays another kind of important role here in the information environment.
Speaker B:Then, of course, you have the.
Speaker B:We haven't Talked really about TikTok or the video platforms.
Speaker B:You know, video plays another really important role in all of this information that people are sifting and sorting through.
Speaker B:What fascinates me, actually, about the video communication is just how short it is.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, you know, our conversation was about an hour.
Speaker B:We barely scratched the surface.
Speaker B:You know, TikTok videos reels on Facebook are 30 seconds to three minutes.
Speaker B:You can't do or say much.
Speaker B:And so the function of those is really to sell stuff and to grow attention for whomever is producing the videos.
Speaker B:But the function of them is it's really to entertain and to sell.
Speaker B:It's not so much to inform or enlighten, I guess.
Speaker A:And of course, that is.
Speaker A:It's the entertainment factor of TikTok that is the gateway to people using it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But as we discussed on the podcast, there's a lot of privacy and data considerations behind social media and how that information is being used.
Speaker A:And TikTok, of course, was on the brink.
Speaker A:Well, very briefly, was closed in America for a few hours before Trump rescinded it.
Speaker A:It's really blowing my mind a bit about this whole thing because, like, why, what is the concern here with TikTok?
Speaker A:Is this pure xenophobia or is this like genuine data concern for Americans?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker B:So the history of this controversy starts with Donald Trump, when he was president the first time, raising concerns that TikTok, as a company owned by China, was a danger to the United States.
Speaker B:And it was at the time, I think, tied into Trump's anti China arguments.
Speaker B:But so that's kind of where things started.
Speaker B:Congress took up these questions about TikTok and the owners of TikTok.
Speaker B:It is the case that companies that are Chinese are subject to Chinese law that requires them to cooperate with the Chinese government when the Chinese government requests any information.
Speaker B:There's very little firewall, if you will, between government, sorry, technology companies, the data that they're collecting, and it's a lot, lot and what the Chinese government then might get.
Speaker B:There's also some evidence of Chinese government actually kind of monitoring, surveilling particular people in the United States, including politicians.
Speaker B:So all of that, I think, fueled legitimate concerns about data privacy with regard to TikTok.
Speaker B:Now, the same claim can be made though about Facebook or X, etc.
Speaker B:But those are US based companies.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So apparently we don't care about that as much as we do these companies owned by foreign countries.
Speaker B:Unless it's money, that's another issue.
Speaker B:But I'll stop there.
Speaker B:So anyway, Congress took up this question under the Biden administration and passed a regulation that basically declared that TikTok would need to sell.
Speaker B:ByteDance could no longer own TikTok if it were to operate in the United States.
Speaker B:And Trump then began to make some noises about actually wanting to see TikTok stay, that he would organize or kind of manufacture some deal as a deal maker, as a businessman.
Speaker B:That was his argument.
Speaker B:But the Supreme Court, you might remember, there was a challenge up to this law around free speech concerns because we have this constitutional amendment that declares that the public has a fundamental right to free speech.
Speaker B:The tricky part there is we have the fundamental right to free speech as it relates to critiques around government.
Speaker B:Government.
Speaker B:So we are to be unfettered with critique against government.
Speaker B:That's kind of really what that amendment is about.
Speaker B:And so the Supreme Court said, well, actually the regulation that the legislative branch passed doesn't violate free speech concerns because this is a private company that is basically selling this communication channel opportunity to people for its own profit ends.
Speaker B:It's not a non profit, nonpartisan platform where people are critiquing government.
Speaker B:So therefore, yeah, the legislation is completely constitutional.
Speaker B:There is a clause in this legislation that said that there could be a 90 day extension on TikTok being shut down if they had a legitimate buyer.
Speaker B:Otherwise it was to be shut down on the 19th of January.
Speaker B:So when Trump took office, so they did shut down early the evening of the 19th here in the U.S.
Speaker B:trump then announced that he would basically execute that 90 day extension.
Speaker B:However, there is no buyer.
Speaker B:So Trump currently is running against, he has violated the law in extending this 90 day period for TikTok.
Speaker B:There isn't a buyer.
Speaker B:That was one of the requirements of the legislation.
Speaker B:Why Trump is doing this.
Speaker B:You know, the speculation is that some of the tech company folks don't want to see the kind of regulation being imposed on TikTok because again, they don't want to see really any regulation.
Speaker B:It is worth noting that the head of TikTok was at Trump's inauguration sitting next to Marco Rubio, our Secretary of State.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:There'S a lot of unpack there.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there.
Speaker B:Take, take from it what you will, but Trump has decided that this is something he wants to make a deal on.
Speaker B:And what that looks like is still not clear.
Speaker B:There's a lot of rumors about people making offers in the US there's an influencer, the Beast, who's apparently proposed to buy it, and because I think others have, too.
Speaker B:So we'll see.
Speaker B:I don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker A:I think what's become really clear, especially when we, when we see the images from the inauguration.
Speaker A:Sorry, did.
Speaker A:I hope I didn't talk over there.
Speaker B:Sorry, I had to correct myself.
Speaker B:It's Mr.
Speaker B:Beast.
Speaker B:I said somebody will come and correct me on that.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:I think, you know, one of the things that has become really clear, particularly from the Inauguration day, is that Trump is building very close relationships, not necessarily with social media, but with the people who run social media in the US And I think the concern there, I, I admit that concern is going to be coming mainly from the left, is that the reason for that relationship building on Trump's part is not necessarily about the interests of the American people, but his own political and business ambitions.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That creates a lot of unease, doesn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I think one of the concerns I have is that people like Elon Musk, because they have so much money and we have this unregulated political campaign environment when it comes to expenditures.
Speaker B:So campaign funding, campaign spending, all of that is fairly unregulated.
Speaker B:And so Elon Musk has basically threatened Republicans who don't fall in line behind Trump's agendas with primaries.
Speaker B:In other words, Trump, sorry, Elon Musk is saying that he'll put money behind opponents who will run against current members of Congress that are running for reelection, basically forcing a primary where then the current incumbent has to raise money and actually really campaign.
Speaker B:Now, in some ways that's healthy, but the concern is that, again, in this un.
Speaker B:Regulated information environment, Elon Musk can spend a lot of money to primary somebody.
Speaker B:And generally speaking, the more money that gets spent, the more likely somebody is to win.
Speaker B:And so, again, that doesn't always happen that way.
Speaker B:And incumbents still have a great advantage over challengers, but the money matters.
Speaker B:And that is very concerning for me because it really creates a fear environment, I think, for politicians who now are facing seeing this reality.
Speaker B:And again, this isn't new.
Speaker B:I mean, this happened back in 16 and in 20 and in the midterms where you saw Trump or some of his wealthy backers offering to help fund or primary people when they didn't fall in line so Joni Ernst, who is a senator from Iowa, she is a veteran, she experienced sexual assault in the military, and she was on the fence about Pete Hegseth, who's.
Speaker B:Who is now our Secretary of Defense.
Speaker B:But he was a very controversial figure, not particularly qualified to lead this massive.
Speaker B:The largest military in the globe and the largest budget of any of the.
Speaker B:Of the branches of government.
Speaker B:And she was threatened with being primaried if she didn't fall in line.
Speaker B:And Elon Musk was very clear about that.
Speaker B:So she voted for Pete Hegseth.
Speaker B:And interestingly, Mitch McConnell did not vote for Hegseth, but he's not running again.
Speaker A:I noticed that that felt like a big deal not having McConnell's back in, not because he really has much sort of direct influence anymore, but he's still an incredibly senior figure within the Republican ranks and one that his decision not to vote for Hecareseth would carry a certain amount of gravitas still within the party, wouldn't it?
Speaker B:Yes, but you know, it obviously not enough because only three Republicans voted against it.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, that is the danger of Trump though, right?
Speaker A:He just seems to be completely redefining the party.
Speaker A:I mean, maybe that's not even harsh enough.
Speaker A:He's completely taken over the party and.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a weird, weird time.
Speaker A:And that's putting it generously.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, this is.
Speaker B:There's been this evolution over the last four decades, or really seven decades, really, starting with the television era.
Speaker B: Before the: Speaker B:They were quite influential in our political processes.
Speaker B: In the: Speaker B: Then in the: Speaker B:They called it kind of these back room primary where a bunch of men sat around those.
Speaker B:All men sitting around smoking stogies saying, okay, this guy should run for office and that guy should not.
Speaker B:In the 70s, they shifted.
Speaker B:The party shifted to direct vote by members of the party.
Speaker B:And that's how we started to have these voting primary processes.
Speaker B: And, you know, in: Speaker B:At one point, there were roughly 18 potentially viable Republicans.
Speaker B:Republicans running in the primaries incredibly fragmented at the same time.
Speaker B:The Supreme Court had ruled.
Speaker B:I think it was a year or two years prior for this more unlimited campaign financing by political action committees.
Speaker B:And so you had a set of candidates, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, his name's not going to be in my head at the moment.
Speaker B:But there were three guys in addition to Donald Trump, who basically had massive cash infusions by single billionaires that kept their campaigns afloat.
Speaker B:And so, as generally, the way the primaries are structured is that those early primaries are supposed to weed out most of the candidates.
Speaker B:And then you shift to Super Tuesday, where you have roughly 10 or 15 states that all vote on the same day.
Speaker B:So candidates who could successfully get through those early individual state votes and then hit Super Tuesday, if they don't have the funding, they don't have the organization, they're done.
Speaker B:But when you get these massive cash infusions, well, now suddenly you can keep running.
Speaker B:And functionally, I think the reason that Trump won is because he had more name recognition than the other candidates.
Speaker B:And in that fragmented environment, he was able to continue to survive, if you will, the primaries.
Speaker B:He would have been out.
Speaker B: been the head of the party in: Speaker B:But the nature of these shifts that happen in the regulatory and kind of this visual environment.
Speaker B:TikTok.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, I keep doing that.
Speaker B:X mattered, too, because Trump went right to X.
Speaker B:He used it as a direct communication medium to his supporters.
Speaker B:And I've done these thought experiments.
Speaker B: X or Twitter didn't exist in: Speaker B:I don't know if he would have, actually.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's really interesting because I do think Trump is the social media candidate.
Speaker A:He knew how to harness the power of that.
Speaker A:And, you know, I think one of the praises that Kamala Harris got when she took over Biden is how much she, you know, started to really lean into that.
Speaker A:But actually, Trump was already ahead of her and, and, you know, that's.
Speaker A:That's how we won.
Speaker A:But I feel like we're about to open a huge can of worms.
Speaker A:We can talk about this a lot, but I'm going to, I'm going to put opinion that for now because I think we need to.
Speaker A:We need to have more conversations about that.
Speaker A:And I'd love to get you back on the podcast, Jenny, but I really appreciate you joining me for this and for the main episode, which if anyone is listening to or, sorry, if anyone hasn't listened to yet, just go and check that out on the feed.
Speaker A:Now, as always, there'll be links in the show notes, so if you like what you hear, you can engage with us through that.
Speaker A:And again, the main episode, you get all of our social handles so you can find out how to contact us and support the show as well if you do want to do that.
Speaker A:Thank you, Jenny, and thank you to our listeners for listening.
Speaker A:Goodbye.
