How Has Immigration Shaped American Identity?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:17

This week, with the threat of mass deportations and the revocation of birthright citizenship looming larger, millions of Americans in the US Are facing uncertainty. But why has immigration become such a big issue?

In this episode, I want to explore some of this a little more to understand the impact immigration has on communities, the reason why some are both passionately for and violently against it, and ultimately figure out how has immigration shaped American identity. Welcome to America, A History Podcast.

I'm Niamh Heffernan, and every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places, the and the events that make the USA what it is today. To discuss this, I am joined by an assistant professor of educational foundations and social studies education at the College of Charleston.

His research focuses on the intersection of nationalism, immigration and education, with a particular focus on more marginalized migrant communities. A big welcome to the show. Will McCorkle.

Will McCorkle: 00:01:40

Oh, thanks for having me, Liam.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:42

Really, really great to get you on the podcast. And in fact, we were just saying before we hit record just how topical this discussion is right now.

Maybe it wouldn't be so contentious if Trump wasn't in power again.

Will McCorkle: 00:01:58

Right. There's, you know, a lot of my work is both on the scholarship side, but also on advocacy. You know, I do a lot of work directly at the border.

And it does seem like when there's an administration, let's say like Biden or before him, Obama, immigration is not centered in the discussion as much. And sometimes there are.

We can talk about this later, but sometimes there are restrictions that happen under Democratic presidents as well, but people just don't discuss it as much, at least in terms of, like, advocacy and seeing the realities of the immigration policies. But when you get someone like Trump who's just so openly and unapologetically xenophobic, then you start to see this conversation grow.

You start seeing a lot more.

There's protests across the nation today, which unfortunately, sometimes it takes those kind of extreme measures to get people active and pushing back a little bit.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:57

It's quite concerning, even sitting here in the UK to sort of see how everything is currently playing out, not just on matters of immigration, but on kind of everything that's currently happening with Trump's administration. But I want to know, actually, because you're based in Charleston, which I must say is an absolutely beautiful part of the country.

It was one of my favorite, favorite places to go. I can't imagine, because there's no, there's just sea in Charleston.

So, you know, do you see much of sort of this immigration issue playing out in your Part of the country.

Will McCorkle: 00:03:32

You know, it's not as there's a growing immigrant population in Charleston.

You know, in the south, it used to be diversity was just in terms of, you know, black and white, and you think of, you know, Jim Crow, the civil rights movement.

But in the 90s, you started to get a lot more immigrants, primarily from Mexico, but now you have more from, you know, Guatemala, Venezuela, Brazil as well. And so you are starting to see larger immigrant communities.

And there is this, like, strange connection with Charleston, which I think most people in the Charleston area don't even know, is that, like, the training center for Homeland Security and ICE is in Charleston, like, at the old Navy base. And so you'll see, like, ICE ages coming for training. And it's not like, public. Like, it's not in a place that people see it.

It's like this kind of hidden area. But I know that there were even some raids this past Friday in the Charleston area with ICE agents.

And so it's definitely not as central as, let's say, California or Texas. But there is this, especially in some of the areas like Charleston, Columbia, Greenville and South Carolina, larger immigrant populations.

And there's also state governments that are pretty hostile as well. And so it's.

It's gotten to a point, I think this is going to continue in the future where if we go down this path, certain states are going to be a lot better to live in for immigrant populations than others. We see this already with, like, asylum policy when people are coming in to seek asylum.

You would think, you know, in some ideal world, it's like the merits of your case if you get asylum. But it's really one of the biggest things is what. What judge you get.

And so, like, if you're in South Carolina, you're going to go to the court in Charlotte in North Carolina, and It's like a 90% rejection rate for asylum, where if you go to New York or Boston, it's maybe a 60% acceptance rate.

And so as things ramp up and as this, you know, government comes in, I'm almost wondering if some states like South Carolina there becomes less immigrants. And if people say the United States, that they have the possibility to go to states that might offer some more protections or some more benefits.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:02

I guess, on that note, because any kind of conversations or dialogue that happens in the US around immigration just feels so loaded with sort of political messaging as well. So just could we clarify exactly what the legal process is for immigration in.

Will McCorkle: 00:06:22

The U.S. yeah, so it's. It's complicated. You know, there's obviously some legal pathways, but they're usually reserved for, for family. That's the biggest.

a lot of that shifted in the: 1960

There are some diversity visas that you can get, and then there are certain work visas, but usually those are reserved for certain very skilled workers. You heard about the H1B visas for bringing in engineers from India.

But for working class migrants, there is usually no legal pathway unless they're married to a U.S. citizen.

And so that means either crossing illegally across the border or what's happened, especially in the last 10 years, is going through the asylum system to try to go that pathway. But there's not like a way to just really apply for a work visa, even though the US Economy is like deeply dependent on that migrant labor.

So it's this irony, right, this catch 22, that the US is dependent on people coming here either crossing illegally or being in this kind of pseudo legal status as they're waiting for their asylum case. But at the same time people are like, we want to kick those people out.

I'm not sure that the context with that in England, but I'm guessing, you know, there probably some.

Some similar dynamics, but just the level of dependency we have on migrant labor, but not actually allowing there to be a pathway for people to legally work in the United States.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:20

Yeah, it feels like such a kind of catch 22 that, you know, the, the systems aren't really there to enable the people that, that can really actually add value to come into the country.

But I guess, you know, this idea of immigration has, I feel like it's been very distorted, the conversations that have been had publicly about it in that people only really focus on illegal immigration. And then before long, just the word immigration just has these really negative connotations.

And I just wonder if because of all of that and everything that's been discussed in the election cycle and now with Trump in the White House, if we're entering this phase where there's just going to be this massive witch hunt and actually people who are in the US Legally end up being wrongly deported.

Will McCorkle: 00:09:11

Yeah.

And I think that's kind of been a shift you've seen over the last 10 or 15 years, especially in the Republican Party, where the line used to be, you know, if this was back with Romney and Obama. Right. The line was very much, you know, we want immigrants, we just want people to do it the right way. We just want people to do it legally.

And some of that might have been disingenuous but that was kind of the talking point.

And you still hear that some, but you're hearing more and more just straight nativism that, you know, Stephen Miller, who's Trump's advisor to, I can't remember his exact title, but you know, in the speech right before the, the election that America is for Americans and just this anti immigrant rhetoric overall. And I think they're definitely finding ways to restrict legal immigration.

So one of the things they'll do, it's hard for Trump to just stop issuing green cards to, let's say family members, because that's in the law. But they can cut the funding or they can like reduce the amount of agents.

And so the process is still there, but it's going to take you five years to get your green card instead of one year. Or with asylum right there, they basically shut down asylum. It was already pretty restricted by their. They're basically shut it down. And so.

But you'll still hear people say, well, these people just don't do it the right way. And you're like, well, what is. Whenever people tell me that what is the right way?

Because you've shut down any legal pathway to even like seek asylum. So we're going to say we're not going to create any way. And then we're going to say, you should have done it the correct way.

And so there's a little bit of like cognitive dissonance. There's, there's ignorance, but I think there's also just a lot of like, chosen ignorance as well.

Where I remember we were doing a rally one time for dreamers who, you know, DACA recipients who are children who came to the country illegally when they were young and they were trying to push for legal status. And the comments that we would get are like, why don't these people just become U.S. citizens? And you're like, that's what they're like.

That's what exactly the reason that they're trying to do this.

And so I don't know, I think just the whole we're just going to choose to be ignorant on it so we can just continue with this attitude is pretty strong in the U.S. yeah.

Liam Heffernan: 00:11:44

I mean, it's easier not to focus on the nuance. Right. When you can just make it kind of like black and white, right and wrong issue, then it's, it's easier to deal with. Right, right.

Will McCorkle: 00:11:54

That's definitely, definitely an issue that's come up for sure.

Liam Heffernan: 00:11:58

So let's look at immigration in action and I wonder if, like, first to just set the Scene.

You could give us a bit of an overview of sort of the big kind of historical waves of immigration into the US and how that sort of shaped the kind of populations and the demography of the country.

Will McCorkle: 00:12:19

Yeah, so I mean there is, you know, the US obviously being a nation of immigrants. So there's.

I always think there's a special irony when the US passes a lot of xenophobic legislation given our history of colonizing and then having waves of immigrants that built the country. I always love the U2 song. These are the hands that build America. Right. There's the immigrants that like build up the nation.

And so I think there was always this tension in the US between restrictions and being a place that people could have refuge and asylum.

So you look at some of the early writings of like even George Washington talks about this where it's, you know, the nation should be this asylum for all that are being persecuted. Right. Not just the wealthy and opulent.

And a lot of this was based on these Enlightenment ideals or you hear this from Jefferson as well, like these, the idea all men are created equal. Now there was a lot of hypocrisy there, right, with slavery. And there was. They never really lived up to those ideals.

But there was still that idea that I think was there at the founding of people should have this right to migrate, people should have the right to leave their country. That's what the whole. The colonists did, right. They came to the US and so I think that was built into the. Part of.

It was built into the American Revolution. Now some of that was maybe co opted and used just to justify what they wanted to do with the revolution or the War of Independence.

That wasn't all for necessarily noble reasons, but they at least used that language. But then even from the beginning there's a pushback on that, right? So there's the Naturalization act, which, which makes it.

And this is in the late: 1700

So there's from the beginning there's like, okay, there's an openness, but there's also the racial aspects.

that continues throughout the: 1800

They think that the Catholic Church is going to take over the US and there is that all the Irish are drunks and they're going to destroy the country and they're criminal. A lot of the same things that are being applied to immigrants today.

But what I always tell people is immigrants were not always treated well once they got to the US but the actual process of getting in was pretty open. And this was not just true at, like, Ellis island, where you have immigrants coming in from Europe, but also the Mexican American border. Right.

Where it was fairly open. Right. You could just kind of walk across in many cases, because the US Was dependent on that labor.

big shift happens in the late: 1800

So there's this big movement against the Chinese, and they say, no, we're going to ban all immigration from China. And even some of the Chinese residents that were living in the US at the time.

And so the first people that had to cross illegally were Chinese immigrants. So the first people that crossed the. The Mexican border illegally were from China.

So they said that sometimes they would, if they could disguise themselves as Mexicans, they could get across. So, like, they wore a sombrero and learned a few words of Spanish and just kept their head down.

And the officers thought that they were Mexican, they could come in. But then at the turn of the century, you know, the 20th century, you get more and more slow restrictions.

And then in the: 1920

So we.

We really just want people from England and Ireland, Germany, France, we're going to try to lower the numbers from Eastern and southern Europe, and we're going to ban immigration from Africa and Asia. There was an exception for Latin America, especially Mexico, because there was so much they were dependent on the labor. So they would let.

nd that continues through the: 1960

signs the Immigration act in: 1965

People are more familiar with the Civil Rights act and the Voting Rights act, but the Immigration act actually was to try to open up immigration to people from more parts of the world. So it made it a less racist system. Right.

So it was opened up to the rest of the world, but they still kept a lot of the restrictions on how many people could come in.

And one of the maybe unintended consequences was that they also put those restrictions on Mexico, which were kind of like, they were kind of an exception to the rule. They kind of didn't have to follow those restrictions before.

But they said to make this fair, we're also going to limit how many people come from Mexico.

ncrease throughout really the: 1960

ned on immigration was in the: 1980

So it's kind of crazy that the Republican Party shift so much on this that they, they gave what they said was amnesty to the people that were here undocumented. You know, part of the package was we're going to put more enforcement on the southern border.

But if you go back and listen to some of the interviews I showed my students this, this past month, but you know, the, the debate between George H.W.

bush and Ronald Reagan, and they're talking about immigration and it sounds like they're to the, the left of the Democratic Party today that, you know, we don't need to be building walls, we need to like be open to people because we need to be having more people coming in.

s through even: 2010

And so the Republican Party was more anti immigrant, but not anything to the extent we've seen since Trump's come onto the scene.

Liam Heffernan: 00:19:44

So what are the big arguments against immigration?

Will McCorkle: 00:19:50

You know, unfortunately, I think most of them are just built on misinformation. You know, I'm trying to give legitimacy to some of them, but so much of it is just based on propaganda.

So I think an example of this is the one you're hearing right now, you know, just played ad nauseam is the idea of immigrant crime. And I know that in some nations, right, that is a legitimate concern.

You know, I think in, I read a little bit about you in Sweden, there's been that discussion, right. But in the US there's not these migrant crime waves, right.

What they'll do is they'll take a very rare incident and then they'll say, see, migrants are killing People and it's a really dangerous strategy. The most recent one was this.

They just passed this bill last week or Trump signed it, the Lake and Riley bill, which said, I mean, it happened there was a Venezuelan man, that migrant that killed a young white American girl and he I guess had been previously arrested for shoplifting and let go.

And so now they said anyone who is undocumented and I believe also, like if you have like TPS temporary protected status or like have daca, that if you're even accused of shoplifting, right, you don't actually have to be convicted, then you can just be detained and deported, like all due process is kicked out.

And so there's this idea of immigrant crime where it's just not even the studies that have come out, at least in the past, have shown that, you know, immigrants, including undocumented immigrants, have lower crime rates than US Citizens, right? Like you don't do all the work and struggle to come to the country to just go out and start robbing people because, you know, there's a lot at stake.

The other one is I haven't heard this as much recently. Definitely in the past it was that, you know, immigrants are taking our jobs, they're hurting us economically.

It's a little harder argument to make in the last couple of years in the US when we've had a labor shortage, right. And unemployment's really low.

And, and so historically, right, when unemployment goes up and there's economic issues, you think of like the Great Depression, there's a lot more anti immigrant movements and policies.

Now economically, it doesn't make any sense, right, because it's like we actually are in need of more immigration, not less, as our birth rates go down. Right.

And this is, I'm sure, the same thing in Europe and England, right, that the birth rates of the native population or the population that was there are going down. And so if you don't have more migrants coming in, there's going to be a population decline.

So I think those are the two biggest, those are two arguments you hear.

But I think under the surface, and some will say this openly and others will disguise it in more kind language, is there's the cultural and racial fears about America is becoming we're losing the white America, we're losing our culture. And it is a little strange for me even I've done some work in Europe in Lesbos and Greece.

And the cultural differences, obviously with migrants coming into Europe, I think there are legitimate cultural differences that you're having to work through in the US Most of the Migrants coming in are from Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela. They're coming from, like, yes, there's cultural differences, but they're still coming from largely like Western Christian nations.

And so I can't even imagine the backlash in the US if the majority of immigrants were coming from Muslim nations. Right. Like in Europe. Right.

So people in the US they're acting like there's these massive cultural differences, and it's like, I guess that person speaks a different language, but they, like, they're coming from a very similar ideological tradition as you, just slightly different language and background.

Liam Heffernan: 00:24:05

I feel like this is where there's a responsibility on news outlets and any news source to report the facts in a more factual way.

Because I think a lot of the people that argue for, as you pointed out, you know, things like immigrant crime and all of these other reasons against, you know, welcoming people into the country, you know, they ignore the fact that, for instance, a majority of gun crime or certainly mass shootings are committed by Caucasian, usually men, usually probably Christian, if they have a religion.

And it's like, actually, because what they're being exposed to is all these news stories that just say, oh, look at this, you know, immigrant who's entered the country and now they've committed a crime.

And it's like, well, if that's immigrant, if that's all you're exposed to, then you're going to think that immigrants are responsible for most of the crime. Right. And it's this selective fact.

Will McCorkle: 00:24:57

Yeah, no, I talked to. I actually got in a little bit of a argument with my congresswoman, Nancy Mace, about this because she was just going off on immigrant crime.

And I remember just going up to her and saying, like, why do you never bring up the statistics, right? Like, you can point to any story to create. Create a narrative. And I warned her, and she accused me of calling her a Nazi.

But I said, this is what happened in Kristallnacht, right?

And when one Jewish individual killed a German official, and they use this to justify, you know, this horrendous treatment of the Jews in Germany, like, this is dangerous things that authoritarians are going to use. And I mean, I do think that's the thing that Americans have to. To get their head around that the danger is not outside. The danger is inside.

You know, we just pardoned these individuals that tried to overthrow the government, beat police officers. You know, some were trying to go in and they're chanting to hang the vice president.

And so you're like, you're ignoring this or you're even like, supporting this. And you're acting like some migrants coming in from, you know, Mexico and Honduras are the problem in the nation.

I do think on a more sinister note, like I think immigration is being used by this administration to take authoritarian control.

So they're going to, they're going to go after, they're going to, in the name of migrants, they're going to try to do these emergency executive orders. I mean, you're even seeing this with these tariffs today where like most of it's just bs, right?

But they, their, they're saying that, you know, this is to stop immigration or to stop fentanyl, like they're just going to use immigration to justify whatever.

And I really do think, I hate to be like too pessimistic or doomsday esque, but like the US Is on the brink of just authoritarian state and they're going to use immigration as a way to get to that.

So if they're sending out all these agents to the street, street, Trump's even talking about sending the army out into the streets to round people up.

You know, it's almost seems like the first group they're going to go after is immigrants and the next is going to be and those who are supporting immigrants or those who are speaking out against the administration. And if you can frame everything as an invasion, we're being attacked, we're in danger from these foreign legions.

Even if it's all just made up and there's no actual basis for it, you can use that to like cement your control.

So I think that's a really more dark and sinister aspect of this, that it's not going to just affect immigrant communities, it's going to affect US Citizens eventually because they're going to use immigration.

Liam Heffernan: 00:27:41

One thing around all of that that really confuses me, I guess, is the sense that all of the hostility and this anti immigration sentiment seems to be built on these kind of very, I won't call them Republican, I'll call them these MAGA principles of this sort of, kind of extreme sort of patriotism and this sort of nativism, as you mentioned earlier. And actually, at what point do Americans have to realize that this isn't really a Caucasian country anymore?

Like when you think about the number of Spanish speaking communities now, and that's going up, you know, Spanish is fast becoming a main language in the US you have huge numbers of communities and people that are first and second generation immigrants that are working, contributing members of society. As you pointed out, the country itself was built on immigrants.

And in fact, the logic that Trump is Using the only people that are really exempt from that are Native Americans, and they find a way to persecute them as well. So it just. It feels like this isn't really about immigration, it's about race.

Will McCorkle: 00:28:58

Right.

And I think, you know, you're looking at history that, you know, this has been covered a lot, but that after Obama was president, right, Something broke in the minds of a portion of the American populace. And, you know, even though Obama, you know, didn't go after white Americans, you know, he was very moderate on his.

The way that he approached these issues of race and even immigration, right. He was far from someone that was open borders, even though that was the narrative, something broken, a part of the American consciousness.

And I think this Trumpism took its place.

And I mean, it's been a sad, sad thing to see in the US Because I think there's, like, there was a core group that love that there was maybe 15, 20% of the nation that just wanted that nativism. And I would say another 20% have somehow convinced themselves that it's okay.

There's a lot of people you talk to that when Trump first came out, they're like, yeah, he's a dangerous man. He's bad. He's a liar, he's a thief, everything. And then when he became the nominee, they would do whatever mental gymnastics possible to support him.

And honestly, it's. I believe it's almost like a religious cult at this point, where there's, like, he could say anything in the world, right?

You're seeing this with tariffs, right?

The Republican Party used to be the party against tariffs, and now they're just, like, sitting back silently saying, yes, we want tariffs because our leader told us to. I mean, the funny thing is, if Trump came out tomorrow and was like, I'm actually.

I've changed my mind, and I want to open up asylum policy, they probably would go along with it. It's almost a point.

Like, there is, like, the real nativism, but at this point, it's almost become this, like, cult of personality where I think he could actually come out and become pro immigrant, which I'll, you know, I pray that's, you know, he has some, like, weird thing in his consciousness that he did that. And I think a lot of his followers would just say, yes, if our leader says that, we will do that. And. And so it's gotten to a point where it's.

And I don't know what the psychological term is, but, like, once you have to justify something over and over in your mind enough, and, like, You've crossed so many bridges and at this point, you know, eight years, nine years later, you've had to justify and look over so much stuff that, you know, Trump saying we're going to put tariffs on Canada until they become the 51st state is just like people just shrug it off. Right. It's not, it's not. It doesn't even affect people anymore because they've gotten used to justifying it.

Liam Heffernan: 00:31:34

Yeah. To think about broadly now how immigration over time has really shaped America and American identity.

If you had a moment right now to just speak to people who doubt the benefits of immigration, who are on board with this sort of pro maga, let's kill, kick all of them out platform, what, what would you say to them to sort of, if you could briefly define why immigration is so important to America.

Will McCorkle: 00:32:07

Right. And I think if people are just looking out for their own self interest, Right. Like, let's not, let's.

Even if you took out the moral and ethical aspects or the rights of people to seek safety, as I was saying before, our economy is deeply dependent on immigration. Sometimes I'll have these discussions, let's say, with people that are more into a MAGA type of mindset, right.

And I'll start off with saying, yeah, our birth rates are really low. And they'll agree, right? They'll be like, yeah, people are not having enough kids. Like, that's a big problem.

I mean, Elon Musk posts about this like every day and you're like, well, the only solution is then is to have greater migration. Right. And then it always gets this uncomfortable thing where that's like, you know, I mean, you could try to force people to have more children.

You know, they're doing that like in Japan and places, they're trying to encourage that. But it's a hard, that's a hard thing to do where you're like, when.

Liam Heffernan: 00:33:04

You can't get abortions anywhere in the U.S. i mean, it kind of. They're ticking that box, aren't they there?

Will McCorkle: 00:33:09

Yeah, I mean, I think there are, there's these ideas that they're going to try to increase the birth rates, but I think, you know, overall they're not going to have people having more than, you know, three kids. And so it's. If people want the economy to be stable, you know, they are going to have to. We're going to have to have migration. Like, that's.

And I think I saw, I think from like just an economic perspective, people don't realize that the reason that their food is not more expensive than it is, and that they're. The services are not through the roof is because we have enough workers.

I think that we might find that pretty soon if they start deporting a lot of agricultural workers, just how dependent we are.

So that's what I would say from a economic perspective, if I was appealing to people from, like, a moral or ethical perspective, I would try to bring it back to those ideals of the United States, regardless of how imperfectly we live them out.

And the idea that all, you know, people have the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, those Enlightenment ideals, you know, that Jefferson borrowed, that if we really believe those, then that has to shape our immigration policy.

Like, we, we can't say we believe in freedom and that we value freedom so much and not begin to think about what does that mean also for people that are free to leave situations where they're being persecuted or in extreme danger because we pride ourselves in the US on having these ideals of freedom and the Statue of Liberty, and we believe in liberty. And unfortunately, we're in some ways going more against those ideals than even.

I always think it's ironic, right, that we believe in these ideals of freedom and liberty.

And then you look at the US Compared to Great Britain, and we have this much stronger executive branch, the much more authoritarian system set up, and you're just like, so what? So our history and narrative is that, you know, we broke away from a, a more authoritarian government.

You're like, well, you've created one that's much more authoritarian. And so going back to those ideals.

And if we actually believe in freedom and liberty and, you know, justice, then we can't be implementing these policies that are going to, you know, separate kids from their families. Or now they're talking about sending people off to Guantanamo Bay and Cuba to these basically concentration camps.

Like, if we believe in these values, we can't go down that route.

Liam Heffernan: 00:35:45

Wise words. And I think there's still so much more to really unpack around not just the history of immigration in America, but also the future.

And, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of reasons to pick up this conversation again over the next four years as Trump continues to, well, seemingly follow through on his. On his promises. But I think we've covered about as much as we can in this episode. So, Will, thank you so much for joining me.

As I say, I think there's going to be a lot more to cover, and it'll be great to get you back on the podcast sometime. For anyone that's listening to the show.

We're going to leave some useful links in the show notes for anything that we've mentioned or covered so you can explore more. But Will, if anyone wants to connect with you directly, where can they do that?

Will McCorkle: 00:36:34

My email is and I'll put it in the notes, but it's mccorklewdofc.edu and also you could just A lot of my articles, if you just look up William McCorkle, you can find a lot of the articles that I've written and covering a lot of immigration policy. And also if you want to know more about the work, specifically at the border, the organization that I'm a board member with is called Practice Mercy.

So you go to practicemercy.org and you can see some of the work that we do there at the border with asylum seekers.

Liam Heffernan: 00:37:10

That's great. Thanks Will. And yeah, we'll put links to all of those in the show notes for our listeners as well.

You can find me if you want to on Bluesky and on LinkedIn. I exist on X, but I've never really post on it anymore, so just search for my name and you'll find me.

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Again, all the info for that is in the show notes. We're going to record a quick bonus episode which will follow this episode right now on the feed. So thank you so much for listening and goodbye.

Will McCorkle: 00:38:07

Sa.