BONUS: Will Kamala Harris Break the Glass Ceiling?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:16

Hello, and welcome to this extra bonus episode. Following on from the latest episode of America, a history podcast we recently published, will America Ever Elect a Woman for President?

And I'm joined now by Farida Jalalzai to discuss this a little bit more. Farida, thank you so much for hanging on.

Farida Jalalzai: 00:00:35

Of course. It's my pleasure.

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:37

Yeah, it's been.

I mean, we've just recorded the main podcast and I feel like we've just only slightly peeled open a big can of worms that we need to just discuss so much more. But it was a really fun episode to do. So anyone listening to this, it's in your feed right now, so go check that out.

But I wanted to just pick up on a couple of things because we normally take a look back when we do the main podcast. I want to take a look more forward with you for just a moment, and I'm going to put you on the spot.

You know, realistically, what do you really think Kamala Harris's chances of winning are this year?

Farida Jalalzai: 00:01:17

You're asking me today? I say it's very good. Right. I think that she's just really enjoyed this wave of support. There's this excitement that she's still able to leverage.

The attacks that the Trump campaign are implementing don't really seem to be be working. And so I think right now it looks good. On the other hand, we have a lot of time left, so it's still a ways away.

Even though this is a shortened period, there's still a lot left. And you're seeing some of the criticisms against Harris's campaign in terms of being light on policy substance.

There's this frequent mention of it's the Vibes campaign. And in many respects, I think that that is meant to diminish, just diminish her credentials.

And I think she has done a good job more recently of trying to bring in more of the policy details. But certainly there's going to be more and more demand for that. I want to see this debate, of course.

Now, you know, the last I knew he was Trump was wavering, but I think that this would be an instance where being able to hear the different candidates debate one another on issues is really important. Right.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:44

I agree. And I think this could potentially be where Trump really kind of derails his campaign in the upcoming debate.

Just for context, we're recording this in the last week of August. So the presidential debate has not yet been.

And I do wonder, Trump, to his credit, actually does seem a little bit cautious about this, and I feel like with good reason, because Kamala Harris is a, is a trained lawyer. Like, she knows how to argue with people and she knows how to win an argument, right?

Farida Jalalzai: 00:03:17

Yeah. I think that there is some fear to be there based on what we would expect. You know, of course, her quality of debate should be very high.

And at the same time, you know, I don't know how many of the examples we could talk about where you would think he'll be if he debates her, that it would maybe derail him a little bit, but somehow not. Yeah.

Liam Heffernan: 00:03:47

Trump is in a just a weirdly kind of win, win situation though, isn't he, because of how he positions himself. Because if he loses the debate, he just goes on the attack and says, oh, it wasn't fair, the questions weren't fair.

And all of his supporters kind of rally around that. So he's never going to lose his base no matter how badly he performs at the debate, will he?

Farida Jalalzai: 00:04:07

That's true.

So in, in many ways, he may just very well want to perform for them again and not be so worried because they're going to think he's their candidate anyway.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:17

So, yeah, I wonder if, you know, Kamala Harris is obviously very, very savvy when it comes to campaigning.

And we've seen that in just the last few weeks how she's galvanized her donors and how she's, you know, really embraced social media and, you know, and launched a campaign from sort of naught to 60 in no time.

But I think that also translates into the messaging and the language because Biden really got dragged into this, these sort of schoolyard sort of arguments with Trump, and it was, it kind of got quite petty. But I think Kamala realizes that that's not the way to beat Trump.

But I also wonder if there's a gender dynamic in there that she's very aware of, that if she stoops down to Trump's level, she'll be seen as the irrational, emotional woman.

Farida Jalalzai: 00:05:08

Right. I think that that is a risk that, you know, is being considered. Though I did see on social media recently the campaign.

Did you see the one where there's the clip of Trump saying, here are the many reasons why I'm considering pulling out from the debate. And they have a chicken that's clucking. So I think she does this in a cheeky way that's still somehow, I mean, it's endearing. It's not.

I mean, it's endearing to people that like, you know, the Harris campaign, but isn't like, super mean and vengeful, you know?

Liam Heffernan: 00:05:47

Yeah. She's playing it really smart, and she's kind of poking fun without being. Kind of. Without being petty.

And I think she's finding that balance really well. On the subject of, you know, Trump speeches, did you see the dialogue he gave at a rally about how he's better looking than Kamala Harris?

Farida Jalalzai: 00:06:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:08

It's like he's just. He can't stand being second best at anything. No.

Farida Jalalzai: 00:06:12

But then he's also talked about how she's beautiful. Right. And it's just, you know, when. When we think about it is almost as though Trump is just.

He's just someone, a candidate onto him, his own, you know, and someone that's unlike any other that we've dealt with. And for whatever reason, for many, there's an appeal to that.

But it makes us who are studying this in terms of the history of campaigns just scratch our heads and think, how is this something that resonates?

And if Harris were to stumble, if she were to stumble on the convention stage or on the debate stage, would people be as forgiving or would they be hypercritical? And, of course, she's trying to appeal to those who are more moderate or independents. Right. And so needs to gain that space more. But I just.

I feel as though she would be much more likely to receive criticism from stumbles or attacks that she would make against. Against Trump.

Liam Heffernan: 00:07:29

Yeah. And I agree. It seems that Harry certainly has. Has more to lose from the debate.

And part of that is a lot of the things that we talked about on the podcast. You know, I think, you know, these expectations of Harris are different from Trump, and that does play a part.

And I think there's more pressure on her to deliver because this is really the first platform she's going to stand on to sort of really put forward her policies, which until now, she's largely avoided doing.

Farida Jalalzai: 00:08:00

She's bringing the. She's bringing policy in more.

But I think that recognizing that soon, you know, immediately really dealing with that, that criticism and bringing in more of the policy details are essential. And it really is essential.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:19

Yeah.

And, you know, assuming Harris goes on to win the election, do you think that this will be just one step closer to having a future ticket that doesn't have a white or male person on it? Or. Or is that going to be decided more by how successful she is in office?

Farida Jalalzai: 00:08:42

Yeah, unfortunately, I think it's the latter.

I think because of the fact that she would be occupying a new space for women and women of color, specifically, that, again, the standards are going to be higher. And so we will come back to that question based on the perceptions of that leadership.

Whereas nobody has thought, based on the failures of men who've been in the presidency that that means that men aren't going to be featured on a ticket. And in fact, one of the parties has nominated someone who's, I think many people could say an unsuccessful leader.

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:25

Yeah. And it's, I mean, you're right, there's, therein lies the difference. And you know, there's been 46 presidents.

They've, they've all done some good things. I'm sure they've. They've all done some bad things. But you're right, it never gets discussed.

Oh, you know, does that mean a white man won't be on the ticket the next election because they've been a bad president? I mean, it just, it's not even a question. Right.

But you know, Kamala Harris could get into office and then suddenly she, she defines what, what is expected of black women in office in America. And it's. The pressure must be immense for that.

Farida Jalalzai: 00:10:02

I think so. And it just really focused and when we think about that, it brings focus to the double edged sword.

We can recognize the importance of this history being made, but then also recognize the potential based on still some of these inequities and the way that the system has worked. And those who have held power haven't been people that include women or women of color as much. Right.

Based on those same circumstances, if they have this, if they falter in any way, there's this tendency to use those descriptive characteristics as explanations as to why. Also, though we are, we are again, we may be scrutinizing them much more for that fact.

Liam Heffernan: 00:10:49

Yeah, I agree.

And actually when, when we don't have to have this conversation, when we don't have to record these podcasts, you know, that's when, you know, we're living in a world where, where there's true equity in, at least in politics, you know.

And yeah, the fact that we're sitting here right now sort of debating this says that there is still a big issue and hopefully America are on the path to change that.

Farida Jalalzai: 00:11:14

Hopefully we'll keep it on the positive note.

Liam Heffernan: 00:11:19

Yeah, we keep trying, we keep trying to end optimistically. Right.

Well, thank you so much, Farida, for joining me for this and also for the main podcast, which again, if you haven't listened to, do check it out right now, it's in the feed. Thank you very much and goodbye.