ITM 5: Young Americans Share their Election Experiences of Voting from Abroad

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:19

With reaction and insights to the biggest stories and breaking news from the usa and a little bit of history thrown in. This is America, A history in the Making. Hello, and welcome to another episode of A History in the Making.

th October,: 2024

And I'm joined by some very special guests today to talk a bit more about what it's actually like to be an American and to be voting in the election from abroad as well. But first, a stalwart of the show, you've heard her many times and of course, getting it back for this as well. Emma Long from uea. Welcome.

Emma Long: 00:01:16

Hi, Liam.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:17

Hello. I don't need to do the whole long introduction for you anymore, do I?

Emma Long: 00:01:21

No, no, you really don't. I'm going to be speaking very little today. Regular listeners will be most grateful to hear.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:27

Yes, but I'm sure they won't be grateful. But. Yes, that is true.

But I'm going to throw now to a couple of guests that we've roped in to join us today, which I'm very excited about, and I'll ask you just both to introduce yourselves. Intern Henry.

Henry Lease: 00:01:42

Yeah. So, hey, guys, My name is Henry.

I'm a current junior at Dickinson College, studying political science and American studies, and I'm currently at UEA for a semester at a very, you know, interesting time in American politics.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:57

It is a very interesting time. And we'll talk more about that today. And McKenna.

McKenna Anderson: 00:02:01

Hi, I'm McKenna. I'm a sophomore at Dickinson College.

I'm originally from Chicago studying politics or political science and philosophy, and I'm here at UEA for the year.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:13

Nice.

And so just to clarify for anyone that didn't quite get that, you know, Henry and McKenna are both at UEA, you know, they are living in the UK right now. But to confirm, you're both registered voters in this election.

Henry Lease: 00:02:26

Yes.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:27

So I want to talk about that.

I want to talk about what it's actually like to vote in the election because us Brits sit here on the podcast week in, week out, and it's very easy for us to talk about the issues in America because, you know, we're not directly affected by it. Right. So I'm really keen to kind of get your thoughts on what's happening here. Firstly, what was the process like for you both registering?

Did you do that in the States before you came over?

Henry Lease: 00:02:53

Yeah, so I voted in Massachusetts.

I'M from Boston and, and I filled out a mail in ballot absentee form over the summer and they shipped the ballot over and I just kind of completed my room and then sent it back. It's a little stressful. I worry they're gonna lose my mail or something, but hopefully it gets there.

Liam Heffernan: 00:03:15

I'm assuming you need to allow for a little bit of leeway just for the airmail. Yeah. What's the cutoff point for sending in your mail?

Henry Lease: 00:03:24

Invoke, I believe for me, I think November 5th. It has to get there by November 5th.

Liam Heffernan: 00:03:31

Right. Okay. So you've got until actual election day for it to.

Henry Lease: 00:03:35

Yeah.

Liam Heffernan: 00:03:36

To arrive. Okay. McKenna, what about you?

McKenna Anderson: 00:03:39

Yeah, so registered vote in Illinois, like around my 18th birthday, I have like those parents that are like, this is the list of things that you get to do when you're officially an adult. So voting was on there, registering to vote was on there.

And then, yeah, I filled out like my federal postcard application to vote abroad over the summer. Got an emailed ballot, had to go through like a weird printing process and get a specific envelope for it. But yeah, mine had to be for Illinois.

It's like postmarked by November 5th, but you have like 2 weeks ish after that date for it to like actually get there and go through the whole process. But it was a lengthy process, but worth it process.

Liam Heffernan: 00:04:23

Yeah. Well, I mean, congrats to both of you for doing that and for putting the effort in to actually vote.

I mean, there's a lot of Americans that still don't do that. Even when they're still in the country, they still don't vote.

I mean, you know, Emma, actually to just bring you in, we've talked a lot about the political process and the election process. Do you think that kind of enthusing people who consistently don't vote could be a big difference maker in the election this year?

Emma Long: 00:04:52

This year? Yeah.

I mean, it certainly looked like that sort of when Joe Biden stepped down and Harris stepped in, there was this kind of wave of support, particularly from groups that we haven't seen voting in large numbers before. Whether that's going to hang on, it's difficult to say. Polls are telling us different things.

But I was interested, Henry McHenry, in what you were saying, because actually we've talked a lot in the podcast about the fact that voting is a state level system. Right. And that it's one of those things where you see that the US is a federal system.

And it's interesting that Henry, yours came by post and you, you know, you, you had, you did that by mail. And McKenna, yours came electronically.

So you're already seeing, like, just with a couple of examples what we've been banging on about or what I've been banging on about at least for, for months, which is the importance of understanding the processes as at state level rather than as a single federal election. And did you guys get.

Get ballots for like the lower down races, so for House and Senate and any kind of local initiatives as well through that process?

McKenna Anderson: 00:05:55

Yeah, mine went, I think all the way down to my county. So like there was federal, then state, then county. I don't believe. I think my city, like the city I'm from does their elections at midterm.

So I went down to county.

Emma Long: 00:06:13

Okay.

Henry Lease: 00:06:13

Yeah, Honestly, mine just went down to names I didn't even recognize at that point. So I figured that was a lot.

Emma Long: 00:06:20

Yeah. We've talked about how many elections can appear on this or how many races can appear on the same ballot. Right.

And you get sort of exhausted once you get partway down the list, so. Interesting. Okay.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:33

It kind of blows my mind in the UK because like when we have the general election, we literally, it's such a short ballot paper. It's like, okay, it's the one vote. What party are you voting for? Your ticker box band?

From the impression I've got, like in the states you get like pages and pages of like different votes, right?

Henry Lease: 00:06:52

Yeah, a lot of research.

McKenna Anderson: 00:06:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Henry Lease: 00:06:55

All these candidates at various different levels.

Liam Heffernan: 00:06:58

But like, how much research do you feel like you need to do before an election? And do I guess, do you bother?

McKenna Anderson: 00:07:06

I feel like federal is pretty blaringly obvious, at least like presidential. Like people know, I'm pretty sure, just like based off what they see in the news.

I think as you go down the line and you start to get those names that are like, who are these people? Then you start to like, do a little research.

I know some people who will literally like make pro con lists and then I know some people who are like, I like this person's name better so I voted for them. And I'm like, oh, that's a weird reason. But okay. So yeah, it definitely varies, but you should do your research.

Liam Heffernan: 00:07:35

Yeah, of course.

But do you, do you think though that once you get to those like lower the sort of the bottom end of those ballots that that's where people start to vote by party rather than by individual?

Because it's, it's really easy to just decide that you're either leaning towards Democrats or Republicans and Then that sways who you vote for, right?

Henry Lease: 00:07:56

Yeah. As someone who does actually do that, vote by party at the end, it's.

I think it's kind of interesting because my state is generally very Democratic, very blue, very left. So it's kind of, you know, there aren't many races that are necessarily that competitive at that level.

So, you know, a vote for a Republican in some races in Massachusetts is just dropping like a drop of red and like a sea of blue, you know.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:23

But do you think then that there could be an instance where, let's say there was a really strong Republican candidate that, because of potential apathy among Democrat voters who might think it's just, you know, a sure thing anyway, that it creates an opportunity where there might be a really strong candidate from another party to actually sneak in and cause a.

McKenna Anderson: 00:08:43

Surprise one year, I think my county is very red. Illinois is a completely. Just very blue state. My county actually leans more red.

So there have been times where, like, those races have been conducted, and I have seen, like, good candidates go down just because people are like, well, I'm not going to change Illinois by voting red. So I'm just voting blue for the heck of it. And it has left some, like, pretty races that were really strong.

Like, just one person, because of their party, loses out.

So I have seen that even in, like, weird area of Illinois that's very different from the rest, people just sort of lose hope in ever changing the color, so they just go with it.

Liam Heffernan: 00:09:25

And how much of a sure thing do you think this is, though? Because from the outside, we kind of reduce the election to just seven swing states, and that's all it comes down to. Is it.

Is it really like that, or is there actually a chance that any of the other 43 could go a different way?

Henry Lease: 00:09:43

I think producing a swing state takes. It's a.

It's a very laborious process with a lot of demographic changes that are gradual over time, and you'll kind of just see, like, patterns of voting, you know, through, you know, various. Various elections. And then I guess all of a sudden, like, there's a new swing state. But I feel like it's usually never very overnight.

Like, you can kind of count the trend.

Emma Long: 00:10:05

I'm interested in your experiences. Again, lots of talk about the swing states, but neither of you are from swing states. Right.

So you're in states which tend to reliably go one way, particularly at national level. There's a lot of discussion about. In the literature. Right.

There's a lot of discussion about people feeling demotivated that they don't get any attention from candidates because they're kind of particularly, I guess in your cases from the.

You don't get a lot of attention from either candidate either because the Democrats think they're going to win or the Republicans just think they're not. I mean, is there a sense that you feel left out of the debate or do you just not want to be bombarded with all the stuff that's going on?

I've got lots of friends who live in Wisconsin and they're just like, we're ready for it to be over. We're just done.

McKenna Anderson: 00:10:52

I think most people would feel that way.

But I have this gut feeling that the vice presidential nominee changed that, at least for Illinois, because we're in the Midwest with Minnesota, with Wisconsin, with all those guys. So when Tim Walls, which Minnesota is incredibly blue, like not changing anytime soon unless something major happens.

Like that was like a big wake up call to all like the pretty set in stone states that like, yes, you do have some pull in this election.

And although the swing states are going to be where the election essentially like turns, it's definitely interesting to feel like back in the conversation as a just very blue state because yeah, nobody really comes to Illinois. If they do, they come to Chicago to like rally the Democratic forces and then leave. So.

But yeah, I think definitely with Tim Walls, we've reentered the conversation a little bit.

Emma Long: 00:11:42

Yeah, you sort of got Obama. You got a bit of a bump, right. With Obama being from. From Chicago. And then otherwise it's that. That sense of that Midwest grouping. Right.

Where people sort of treat everybody the same, where actually it's not. But how about you, Henry? I was going to say you similar kind of state politics. Right. But not on the coast.

Henry Lease: 00:12:04

Yeah. Massachusetts is unbelievably blue. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

But I think it's interesting because we go to college in Pennsylvania, which is arguably the biggest one, and you can kind of see the intensity in the politics there.

Emma Long: 00:12:19

Yeah. I have a friend who's predicting that whichever way Pennsylvania goes will sort of flag up the way the election's going to.

Henry Lease: 00:12:26

Yeah, I think that's been a trend over the past few of them.

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:29

Henry, I'm keen to know what the sort of reaction was within Massachusetts when Kennedy sort of joins the presidential race, because I'm going to make an assumption that if there was going to be sentiment towards a Kennedy anywhere, it will be in that part of the country. Did he ever have momentum?

Henry Lease: 00:12:50

Oh, man. I mean, you Know, love the Kennedys. Right.

But I feel like politically he's a little bit out there compared to the rest of them in terms of his policies.

Liam Heffernan: 00:12:59

Yeah.

Henry Lease: 00:13:00

I had a. I had a funny story though.

I was at the dentist once and I told her I was a political science major, like my dentist, and she had, you know, my mouth forced open. She's like, oh, who are you voting for? I can't talk. And then she was like, oh, this is why I'm voting for RFK.

And then explained it to me for 20 minutes and I couldn't get a word in because she was like working on my teeth.

So I think, I mean, that's a standalone instance, but I feel like people definitely consider it as an option, especially when Biden was in the race, because I think there's a lot of doubts about Biden's age. So I think, I think he was a decent alternative.

I didn't necessarily notice a large surge because, you know, his policies are a little bit more, I guess, libertarian right leaning than traditional Kennedy's.

Liam Heffernan: 00:13:42

Yeah.

Interesting that he then did go on to endorse Trump, which feels like a bit of a stab in the back to everyone who historically sort of backs the Kennedy family. Right.

I'm really actually interested to know about your sort of experiences, sort of, I guess, engaging with issues around the election and as a voter from abroad, because as we sort of touched on, the 43 out of 50 states tend to get a little bit ignored anyway. And not only are you from one of those states, but you're living a few thousand miles further away as well.

How engaged have you felt in this election cycle?

McKenna Anderson: 00:14:20

I feel like it's been a weird mix of like, literally like I'm getting nothing and then like hearing things when I'm on the phone with my parents. I'm like, when did that happen? And. But then also feeling like, oddly just more knowledgeable because I'm hearing it from an outside perspective.

Like it's. It's very echo chamber when you're just like, like being a polysi major, I'm like a part of my campus, like politics, things like that.

It becomes very just like Americans talking to Americans about American politics all the time. So it's interesting actually to get a perspective of like.

No, like things that are happening in your country are crazy, though you might not realize it. This is insane.

I'm like, yeah, so, like, it's a weird, Like, I do feel a little out of the loop, but, like, doing what you can, doing the research, reading the news. But then Actually getting this, like, really valuable perspective, even though I'm away.

Henry Lease: 00:15:11

Yeah. I feel like.

I feel like I felt more obligated to keep, you know, in the loop with news and research and stuff, because I do feel disconnected in the sense. And I think it's interesting.

There's always kind of a tension in the air, you know, before an American election, and it's kind of funny going outside and it's. It's sort of like, oh, there's an election in America.

I mean, it's obviously important on a global scale, but I feel like there's like an intensity that's kind of not there.

Liam Heffernan: 00:15:35

So when I.

When I was in America and I was looking at, like, the BBC news website, for instance, I got the international version of BBC News, not the BBC.co.uk editorial that I'm used to. And there was a very different vibe as to how they presented UK news to the rest of the world versus how they did it on their own UK website.

Are you finding that the content that you're seeing is a little bit differently curated from abroad?

Henry Lease: 00:16:07

I think.

I don't know if I could answer that question because I've been kind of curating American articles because maybe that's what makes me more comfortable, unconsciously. But I think it's interesting, you know, talking to other people. I think that like.

Like McKenna said earlier, I think you kind of get that perspective from, you know, interacting with people. And we'll have conversations about the elections and they'll ask these questions, you know, like we're doing right now.

And I think that's kind of where you notice, you know, the sort of difference. There's like, a much larger curiosity to it instead of like a kind of like, oh, this is what's happening.

Emma Long: 00:16:44

Yeah. I have a feeling from following them from both sides of the Atlantic that American news outlets don't.

Don't accommodate for the rest, the way the rest of the world might want to see their material in the way that the BBC website. Website does. Which I guess for.

For anyone listening who doesn't know that, yeah, you get a different version of the BBC website when you're aboard than you do when you're in the uk. I was wondering if you.

If you've been surprised at how much coverage there is of it here and how much people are paying attention to the American election here, because obviously it's a different country. Have you. Is that surprised you?

McKenna Anderson: 00:17:23

It is so shocking to see, just because, like, I guess my initial thought is, do we get this much coverage of Like, UK elections in the us I'm like, no. Like, they're not. They don't cover it this extensively, but, like, it is quite interesting to see how invested people are.

But then it, like, once again pulls me out of, like, the America echo chamber of, like, this is because this election matters to a lot more than I think we realize.

But, yeah, and just in my conversation with other British people, like, talking about their politics, like, I have asked people who their prime minister is and they didn't know, but then they knew that, like, Joe Biden was our president. And I'm like, whoa, that is. That was crazy.

So it is interesting to see just the amount that, like, Americans consider, like, British politics versus the opposite of that. It's. It's pretty shocking.

Liam Heffernan: 00:18:12

Why. Why do you think, like, the rest of the world cares about America so much, you know, from your perspective?

Henry Lease: 00:18:20

I think it's because it's entertaining. Especially recently, I have a. I'm taking a politics and pop culture class here.

My professor described it as WWE wrestling, especially, you know, with Trump's bombastic campaign style. It's a lot of stunts, it's a lot of, you know, insane headlines. I never know what I'm going to wake up to anymore.

From my perspective as an American, at least, I think it's embarrassing, but I can see why it could be fascinating.

Liam Heffernan: 00:18:50

Yeah, I'm really fascinated with Trump and everything about him because I think internationally and particularly in the uk, I'm not sure Trump would ever gain the sort of momentum that he's had for, like, eight years now, longer in the U.S. and I just. I'm really interested to know if what the feeling is, like, on the ground in the us Are there.

Are there really that many people that want Trump to be president? I just. I don't get it.

McKenna Anderson: 00:19:25

There are. There are, there are. And I hate to say that with, like, everything in me, I hate to admit that, that. But there are. And over the summer, I was.

I canvassed for one of my elected representatives that I work for. But, like, the amount of houses that were just, like, decked out in, like, Trump 20, 24, stuff it.

There are people that just, regardless of what he says or what he does, they are just with him all the way. So, yeah, it's. It's very real.

en ride or die for him. Since: 2016

Henry Lease: 00:20:11

Yeah, I think. I think the pull of him is that he presents himself in kind of a. I'm a regular guy. I'm not, you know, in the government.

I'm not like the Clintons or, you know, Joe Biden. I haven't, you know, worked in the system that is, you know, kind of like big and intimidating.

I think a lot of Americans definitely, like, have an anti government sentiment. You know, I think it's ironic it's Donald Trump because he's a rich businessman, but I think he kind of appeals to sort of every man.

You know, he says what he thinks. He seems very genuine, you know, whether that's a good or bad thing.

But I think he appeals to this kind of like, you know, outsider, like, viewpoint of like, I'm not big government. I'm for you. And I think that's why he has a grip on so many Americans.

Liam Heffernan: 00:21:02

So this is going to be the first election I'm assuming that both of you are voting in, right? First presidential election.

Henry Lease: 00:21:08

Yeah.

Liam Heffernan: 00:21:09

So how do you think this whole new generation of voters, which you're part of, could.

Could sway the sort of national sentiment, you know, And I guess the bigger question there is, you know, are the issues that Trump is speaking on and appeals to the same as the issues that matter to you two?

McKenna Anderson: 00:21:33

I think it'll be interesting to see because not only are we, like, the, like, young generation of voters, but it's. It's just completely different from any political, like, spectrum or scene that our parents would have voted in.

I don't think we've ever seen this much polarization or these, like, characters before, quite frankly, in politics. So it. It's almost like we're just forging something new completely. Like, regardless of our age, it's just completely different.

And it is interesting to see the issues that Trump talks about, because from my vantage point being a young person, I don't see how those could, like, forge this new path. Like, he's. I'm gonna sound biased.

Henry Lease: 00:22:20

He's.

McKenna Anderson: 00:22:21

It's. He's taking us back. Like, every time he opens his mouth, I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I feel like I'm in, like, the 50s again. It's. Yeah.

So I think being someone who sees this, like, political scene as a young person as a way forward, and then hearing someone talk about wanting to go back is just kind of insane and very unsettling in many ways.

Henry Lease: 00:22:44

Yeah.

I think, particularly for our generation, I think the Internet has played a big role in you know, spreading information and our exposure to, you know, misinformation and things like that. And I'm so curious to see, like, the literature on how, you know, a generic, like, you know, Gen Z and what was before us. Alpha, I think.

I think so Alpha's after you guys or after. Yeah, I'm really curious to see the literature and how that affects, you know, the mentality of voters in.

In a few years when there's a larger sample size.

Liam Heffernan: 00:23:20

Yeah. And I think certainly seeing everything unfold internationally. When Harris did officially take over from Biden, there was this.

It felt like this renewed energy in certainly the coverage of the election in this sense that actually perhaps there would be a race which, you know, felt like. It felt like a foregone conclusion for Trump before Biden dropped out. Certainly that's the skew of the coverage we got.

I've sort of compared back to: 2008

Is that purely just a generational thing, do you think? Certainly when you look at how the Harris campaign has embraced new technology and different ways of reaching people.

McKenna Anderson: 00:24:15

Yeah, I definitely think it's a generational thing. Just because there was, like, when Biden was running, it felt just like, old. Like, we've seen this before.

If you were a Democrat, it felt like you were fighting a losing battle with, like, nothing to grip onto. And then when, like. And there was no outreach either, at least compared to how the Harris campaign is doing, youth outreach, there felt it.

There was just, like, nothing to really hold on to if you were a young person or a Democrat. When Biden was running.

And now, like, Harris is really going on with, like, the TikTok thing, the Twitter, like, she's really just going all out with the word getting young people to vote. And you can feel it, like, for sure.

I feel like I can't go a day without seeing that Kamala hq, like, reposted or posted or liked or did something on TikTok and Instagram.

But it's also, like, a nice feeling knowing, like, this could potentially be the person in the White House who's literally trying to make sure that, like, people my age are involved, which is a nice feeling.

Henry Lease: 00:25:17

Yeah, I remember. I think that was around the time Trump got shot, too. And that was just an insane couple weeks.

And the thing that stuck with me was that the Momentum that Harris generated made me completely forget that Trump got shot at a week prior. And, Yeah, I think McKenna said it well, but I think it'd be funny if we had a president who was.

They made Brad Summer TikTok edits of in the White House. I feel like stuff like that, like, connects to us. It's definitely in a way that Joe Biden's campaign couldn't. So it's fascinating.

Emma Long: 00:25:54

It seems important, right?

Because if you look at the statistics, people in the sort of, the 18 to, depending on which one you look at, 18 to 25 or 18 to 30 category are the least likely to vote, Right? And so I think a lot of politicians have sort of traditionally written off that group and kind of gone, well, they don't go out to vote.

So, you know, we'll, we'll make some kind of effort, right, to talk to them so that they don't feel completely ignored. But actually we're going to concentrate on the 30 and older and particularly older people, which is the same here in the UK.

Older people, particularly over the age of about 55, vote much more regularly.

And it skews the politics because they start talking about things like pensions and Social Security and I guess in the us, sort of Medicare and Medicaid and those kinds of policies that tend to affect seniors because they're the ones who vote.

So it is good, it's sort of good to hear that this is a campaign, if we're not perhaps seeing it quite so much, but this is a campaign that is actively trying to get young people engaged, albeit, yes, they want to win, but it's kind of, at least they're making the effort, right, to try and find those things that, that people under the age of 30 care about and say, this is. This is your area as well. So I hadn't heard.

I'd sort of seen some of the outreach stuff, but I hadn't, I hadn't heard it was quite as extensive as it is. So it's kind of interesting to hear.

Liam Heffernan: 00:27:27

I mean, Emma, we've spoken on a really early episode about, like, how age matters when we're talking about, you know, how presidents are elected and, like, whether someone's too old to be a president. It does feel like that's been such a huge factor in this election.

And I kind of think the, you know, the, the other side of the coin to what you said about, you know, that, that outreach and, like, trying to, trying to appeal to younger voters is that it feels like this election has become so much less about the Politics and the policies and so much more about, about just personality and likability. I don't know if you both have found that at all.

McKenna Anderson: 00:28:08

Yeah, I could definitely see that.

And oftentimes I'm honestly thinking about just the smaller day to day policies that throughout four years of a presidency you would want to implement, because there's definitely policy in there, but major, like hard hitters, like abortion rights, things like dei, things like SCOTUS too. So it's like heavy hitter policy that it's essentially like, which draws the line between the two candidates.

And so I have often thought, like, I do wish there was on both sides, honestly, more of like the, regardless of my party, this is what I want to do. And I do think that Harris has a little bit done that. Trump, not so much. But it's hard to find the policy.

But what they do bring up is definitely important. But it's definitely like the heavy hitter, right or left stuff.

Henry Lease: 00:29:08

Yeah.

And I think one of the interesting things I learned studying political science is that not a lot of people understand the intricacies of the federal government. I mean, like, I study it and I still kind of have trouble, you know, figuring out what's going on in there.

So I think likability and perceivability as a candidate is very, very important. And it's fascinating, you know, talking to people here.

They talk about Harris and, you know, she hasn't had a lot of Runway to, you know, set the tone in her culture and get people to know her. So a lot of voters, like in America and like, people I've talked to are like, I just don't really know who she is.

So I feel like she's kind of done this like, media blitz, like recently in an effort to try to cultivate that in like such a short span of time, which has been really fascinating to watch.

Liam Heffernan: 00:29:52

Yeah.

And I think even though that she hasn't had that Runway, what, what I think has been quite crazy to me since she entered the race is that, you know, when you look at Harris's credentials, she's supremely qualified for the job. You can't really argue with that.

But Trump's campaign, you know, maybe it's tempered a little bit, but really pushed this fact that she's just the DEI candidate, you know, she's ticking a box for the Democrats. And I'd like to think that most American voters are as level headed and as, you know, rational as you two.

Please tell me I'm wrong if that's not the case, because I don't understand how that sort of messaging breaks through.

McKenna Anderson: 00:30:37

Yeah, unfortunately, no. There are very irrational voters in America. It's very unfortunate.

But I will say, regardless of my, like, party line or whatever, I think the Republican attack on Harris, that she's, like, playing identity politics is flat out wrong. Like, she's just not. And it's honestly incredible to me how she has created in such a short amount of time.

Like Henry was saying, she has made, like, a name.

She already had a name for herself, but she's, like, really pushed herself, really pushed her background being a prosecutor in California, of all places, like, really been able to put herself on the platform of, like, I. Regardless of who I am, I am qualified, and regardless of who he is, he is not.

And so it's been really interesting to see, like, the reaction to that because how, like, how do you react to someone saying, like, you're not qualified when you're not?

And so seeing the Republican response to the, like, professionalism and background that she brings has been really interesting to see and then also interesting to see why people then still sort of overlook that and say, whatever, don't care about qualification. I'm going with my gut or with my party. And yeah.

Henry Lease: 00:31:53

Yeah, I think. I think the Republicans are really trying to play into the culture war aspect of it.

You know, you see like, stuff like the don't say gay bill in Florida and things like that.

It's kind of like, at least on the Republican side, I think with, you know, recent legalization of gay marriage and a lot of exposure to things like that, I think a lot of people feel threatened in a way to, you know, face something that they don't really quite understand yet. And I think it's fast. Like, I saw. I saw a Trump ad that said, Trump is for us, Kamala is for they. Them.

And then it showed, like, a photo of people who are, like, supposedly non binary. And it was just kind of. And I saw this ad three times in 20 minutes. It was insane. So I think.

I think the Republicans kind of playing into that to discredit Harry is fascinating. I think it's a. It's a. Reflects like, a much larger theme in American politics, particularly on the right.

Emma Long: 00:32:48

Yeah. And that compartmentalization of voters. Right. As well. And I do wonder if that kind of language of being a DEI hire. Right. Is a way of.

It's sort of a way of Republicans talking about race without being actively seen to talk about race. Right. You know, for all the issues that there are in the US and here too, I mean, you know, we're not singling the US out.

We've got our fair share of problems on race and irrational emotional voting and all the rest of it here. So it's not that. But, you know, I think the US has largely got past the point where outright racism is going to, you know, is going to lose your.

Lose you more voters than it's going to win you. Right. In that context. But there are ways to get round that. And I do wonder if this is part of that, right, of.

Part of a Republican way of trying to appeal to those voters for whom race is an issue where they, they still feel, you know, people who feel like they're losing out and the issues to do with affirmative action and all of that are part of the reason they are losing out.

You can appeal to them without necessarily losing some of your more moderate voters who don't feel that way, sort of people hearing it what they, they want to.

Liam Heffernan: 00:34:08

But how do you, how do you do that whilst also retaining any minority voters that you have, you know, like Harris has seen a drop in the number of black voters of saying they're going to vote for her.

I mean, it's still, it's still a huge majority, but she still, she has seen a small drop and whereas Trump has seen some gains among non white voters. So if that's the kind of campaign line they're going down, how on earth are they picking up any non white, non male votes?

Henry Lease: 00:34:46

I think what I think is that, you know, historically, America has obviously treated African Americans very, very poorly, especially through the government. And I think that distrust of government is definitely present in that group, which is fair.

And I think, you know, like I said earlier, Trump's position is that outsider candidate is like, I'm not, you know, big government, I'm not the Clintons, I haven't been there for a while. I think maybe that can make an appeal. I don't really have any stats back that up, but that's what kind of what I theorized.

So it's kind of interesting to see, but I'd like to get some real statistics on that someday and, like, figure that out.

Emma Long: 00:35:24

Yeah. And I think some of those voters would say we're not just one thing. Right.

Just because we're black doesn't automatically make us Democrats or just because we're, we're. We're. We're classed in the Latino voter category, that means we vote this way. Right.

You know, I think that the argument I've seen when people have been asked. Right.

You know, on both sides, actually, of the political spectrum, when people who are not from groups that are non traditionally voting for that group, that's often been the response. Right. Don't treat us as one thing. You know, yes, this is one characteristic, but this is my background and this is what influences that.

So I think that would probably, you know, don't, don't as well as that distrust, which absolutely I think is, is there as well. I think there's that don't, don't put us all in one box type response as well.

Liam Heffernan: 00:36:15

Yeah, I think that's valid.

But I also feel like when, when the party campaigning bring issues of race into the election and try and create some division along those lines, surely, you know, not, not even, you know, black voters, but all voters should be saying, like, this is crazy, like, and be sort of turning away from them.

And it just doesn't, it just feels like Trump seems to be able to get away with so much more than other candidates are able to get away with in what he says and how he acts.

McKenna Anderson: 00:36:52

Yeah, I think it's an anticipation thing. Like at this point in his political career in the U.S.

i, I would expect nothing less than for Trump to come out and say, like, what did he say a few weeks ago? Like, they're going to choose the white person or they're going to choose the man over the woman of poor. Like, at some points you just go numb.

And then it's important at those points to realize that is crazy that at this point we have someone running for president, that we're just like, yeah, he's going to say racist, misogynistic, awful things. Like it's, it's just anticipatory.

Like, it, nothing really shocks anyone at this point because if you're for him, you're like, yep, I like what he just said. If you're against him, it's like you're tired. Like, yeah, we know that you feel that way.

Henry Lease: 00:37:41

Yeah.

I read something recently about how I think someone on his staff said that he asked them, why can't you be more like German generals, you know, kind of implying, you know, Nazi Germany. And I read that and I was, yeah, like McKenna said, I read that. I was like, oh, that just sounds like him.

And then like 30 seconds later I was like, that's insane to say.

Liam Heffernan: 00:38:02

I mean, actually on that, on that note, you know, America certainly has had its fair share of criticism for being somewhat self involved historically, obviously from the uk A lot of the coverage is focused around the impact that Trump will have around the world, particularly, you know, his relationship to certain foreign leaders and how that might affect a lot of ongoing conflicts that are happening. Is that a big issue in America? And I guess my follow up, if the answer is no, is should it be?

McKenna Anderson: 00:38:32

I think it's coming to the forefront now more than it has in the past. But it's not even like on a party line difference.

I think it's because people are realizing, like, why are both candidates not speaking up more about things happening globally? Like it's, it's sort of like either, either way you fall, I think you're going to have feelings about it.

I feel like the right would probably lean more towards maybe just saying, like, let Trump handle it or like he's great at foreign relations. Like, he talks to amazing leaders everywhere. He's going to keep us safe. He could have stopped the war in Ukraine, like, things like that.

And the left honestly should probably be talking about it more. Like, I feel like we're also pushing away the problem.

I think it's forefront now because it's like people are realizing that there's a whole group of voters that are yet to decide and that could also potentially swing the election based on how each candidate handles Foreign Affairs.

Emma Long: 00:39:33

2020 was interesting because I think the US focus was internal. Right. Because of the pandemic that you're talking about and the Black Lives Matter riots.

And people wanted somebody who was going to focus internally. Right. And solve the internal problems. And just Trump didn't seem to be the person to be able to do that.

Ironically, given Joe Biden's foreign policy experience over his long career, that was somewhat ironic. But I think, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

this time round as it was in: 2020

This time it feels like it's there a little bit more as an issue, but perhaps only for voters who are already engaged with those issues. I wonder if it's perhaps not on the radar of people for whom international politics is not on their everyday radar anyway.

So maybe it's an issue that kind of affects some voters more than others.

Liam Heffernan: 00:40:51

Yeah, it certainly doesn't seem to be a big enough issue domestically that it's, it's warranting A lot of air time.

I think one of the debates, was it that maybe the Harris Trump debate, there was criticism that they only spent such a minuscule amount of time on, on foreign policy. And clearly, clearly that must mean that they, they don't think that it's going to translate to votes and make of that what you will, I guess.

But I guess just sort of wrap this up and bring to a close.

And it's something I ask every guest on every episode as we talk about the election, just to timestamp this once again, obviously, we're recording this on Friday 25th October. So we're now 12 days, 11 days away from the election. Based on everything you know and think right now, if you were to put a bet on the outcome.

So not, not who do you want to win, but as of right now, who do you think will win?

McKenna Anderson: 00:41:50

Oh, gosh, that's, that's a, that's a hard ball. I'm going to, okay, I'm going to say Harris. And I know that people are going to say, yeah, you would think that.

But I genuinely do think the fact that she has done this much in just the short amount of time, like, I really do think she will take every second that she can to get people to vote for her. Like, I really do believe that.

And I think swing states have shown that they're maybe not as staunchly one way or another as they were when Biden was still running.

So I think just the swing that she has made in this amount of time and the fact that though it's a small period of time, there is a period of time left before the November 5 for the election, I think she has a good shot.

Henry Lease: 00:42:40

Yeah, I think all the Trump's gained some recent momentum. I think I put my money on Harris.

If you look at factors like the Democrats performance in midterm elections and the stock market and you know, all the momentum she obviously gained in four months. But I think also you can't count Trump out. He's like a little, he's like a roach. Won't go away no matter how much you spray it. So it's so hard.

I would put money on Harris by women surprise if I lost.

Liam Heffernan: 00:43:08

Yeah, I think having looked at some of the trends among swing state polls, I'm worried on your behalf that this may actually still go Trump's way. Even though I think I optimistically, Emma said to you soon after Harris became the candidate that it was becoming Harris's to lose.

The momentum seems to have just dissipated a bit. Emma what do you think?

Emma Long: 00:43:37

Yeah, I was talking to my students in class this morning, basically giving them lots of information from opinion polls and telling them basically to be skeptical about all of them because they've always been so wrong in past. So I don't know. I genuinely think it can still go either way.

I mean, we talk about momentum one way or the other, but every poll is within the margin of error. Right. And I think.

I don't even know that it's necessarily going to come down to anything that either candidate does unless they do something either utterly brilliant or disastrous in the next couple of weeks.

I think for those areas, not just the swing states, but those areas where, you know, those voting, the voting is more balanced, it may come down to just how people feel on the day, which is terrifying.

Liam Heffernan: 00:44:34

Really.

Emma Long: 00:44:35

Yeah. But I mean, it's no, it's no different for swing voters in other countries. Right.

It's not that the US is unusual about that, it's just that it's a bigger, longer process in the US than it is in most countries. And because the US is so influential in the rest of the world, it has equally big impact on the rest of the. Well, the US doesn't pay.

mean, I was in the US for the: 2019

But that's because what happens in the UK doesn't really affect the US in a massive way, but what happens in the us, especially at this moment, massively affects what's going to happen with the rest of the world. So we're paying, we're paying more attention.

Liam Heffernan: 00:45:23

Yeah, absolutely. And a quick sort of sweepstake to finish off our discussion.

How many in days, how long do you think it will be before we actually get a result after the election?

McKenna Anderson: 00:45:37

I'm going to give it. If the election is like 11 or 12, I'll give it 16, 16, 17 days until we know the next president.

Emma Long: 00:45:45

Okay, so you reckon four, four or five days after the election, Right, we should have a result?

Henry Lease: 00:45:51

Yeah, I'd probably say the same thing. That's gonna be a horrible four or five days.

Emma Long: 00:46:00

It's about what it took last time, Right. The election was the Tuesday. I think we got the result on the Saturday. Yeah, something like that.

So 5ish days, chance to work its way through, legal challenges to work their way through and those kinds of things.

Liam Heffernan: 00:46:15

Well, I'm going to be, I'm going to be optimistic seeing as we're, we're hosting the live Lasdun lecture two days after the election that my phone will be with me and I'm really hoping we get a result during that while we're speaking. Yeah, because that would be, that'd be a nice conversation pivot. But yeah, that's maybe optimistic of me. Right.

It's been, it's been great to actually chat to the Both of you, McKenna and Henry, not least because it's normally just a load of Brits who have absolutely no vested interest in the election. So it's really nice to hear your opinions as people who have been living in the US for your whole life and who are voting for the first time.

It's been really insightful and just thank you for joining the podcast. If anyone wants to connect with you after listening to this, where can they do that?

Henry Lease: 00:47:03

Henry hmm, I guess my Instagram is just Henry Lees if you want to do that. I don't check it often, but I guess after this I'll try.

Liam Heffernan: 00:47:11

It's like Emma's not on social media at all, so having an Instagram is already one up on her.

McKenna Anderson: 00:47:15

anders: 0509

Emma Long: 00:47:29

And Emma, yes, as regular listeners will know and as you've pointed out, I don't do social media so people can find me through the UEA website.

Liam Heffernan: 00:47:38

Awesome. And yeah, I'm still hanging on X, which probably shows you my age via this is the HEV.

So do follow me there and on LinkedIn as well, which is just my normal name.

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