Why is Abortion So Controversial in America?

Liam Heffernan: 00:00:01

This week, as one of the most conservative administrations in recent times settle into the White House, concern grows on the left around what this means for reproductive rights. The overturning of Roe v.

WADE Back in June: 2022

In this episode, I want to know why is abortion still so controversial in America? Welcome to America, a history podcast.

I'm Niamh Heffernan and every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places and the events that make the USA what it is today. To discuss this, I am joined by Rebecca Fraser, a professor of American history and culture at the University of East Anglia.

Her research focuses on discourses of gender, race and sexuality, particularly in 19th century America. Welcome back, Becky.

Rebecca Fraser: 00:01:19

Yeah, thank you for having me back to talk about what promises to be a really, really interesting and insightful discussion.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:26

Yes, indeed. I couldn't think of anyone else better from the faculty really to get involved in this one. So, yeah, great for you to be here.

But we're also delighted to be joined by the senior minister of University Christian Church in San Diego, the co executive director of progressivechristianity.org and the co host for, for the Moonshine Jesus Show. All the same person. He's a busy guy. He's gained quite a following on TikTok for his directness on matters such as abortion.

So a big welcome to the show to Reverend Caleb Lines.

Caleb Lines: 00:01:57

Hello. Thanks for having me here.

Liam Heffernan: 00:01:59

Thank you, Caleb, for joining us. And I've got to say, as someone, I'm going to throw this out there.

I probably consider myself an atheist, but I've listened to the Moonshine Jesus show and I have to say it, it's such a great podcast.

Caleb Lines: 00:02:12

We have a lot of fun. I mean, if you're watching sci fi fantasy stuff and you have a cocktail, how can you not have fun?

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:21

Exactly. Faith aside, I think we can all agree on that.

Caleb Lines: 00:02:25

That's right, Cocktails, they're universal.

Liam Heffernan: 00:02:28

Exactly. So you describe yourself as a progressive Christian, but what does that mean?

Caleb Lines: 00:02:36

So I think that progressive Christianity really is just Christianity. It's just that Christianity has been so co opted by the religious right that there has to be disclaimer.

And so I often found myself, even when I was growing up, saying things like, I'm a Christian, but not, not like those other Christians. And what I really, I think meant was just that I was striving to follow Jesus without the hate.

And so in: 1994

word for such people prior to: 1994

And I think they're helpful in distinguishing this type of Christianity from other types of Christianity.

So those five core values are, by calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean we are Christians who believe that following the way and teachings of Jesus can lead to experiencing sacredness, wholeness, and unity of all life, even as we recognize that the Spirit moves in beneficial ways in many faith traditions.

Two, seek community that is inclusive of all people, honoring differences in theological perspective, age, race, sexual orientation, gender identity, expression, class, or ability.

Three, strive for peace and justice among all people, knowing that behaving with compassion and selfless love towards one another is the fullest expression of what we believe. Four, embrace the insights of contemporary science and strive to protect the earth and ensure its integrity and sustainability.

And five, commit to a path of lifelong learning, believing there is more value in questioning than in absolutes. And really, that ought to just be Christianity. I mean, things like saying, hey, we embrace compassion shouldn't really be a radical thing.

But as we saw at the service at the National Cathedral this past week, just calling for mercy has been a controversial thing with the Trump administration. So I think progressive Christianity now is more important than ever.

Liam Heffernan: 00:05:20

And I mean, that sounds awesome, but this is why I get so confused, because I find it really hard to understand how people who practice the same religion, which is all based on the same source material, can have such wildly different views about things like this. And that extends to matters such as abortion.

Caleb Lines: 00:05:44

Yes, absolutely. And I think a lot of it has to do.

If we look back, say, 100 years at the fundamentalist versus modernity modernist controversy in the first half of the 20th century, we see that, like, there was this debate about how you view scripture. Do you take the Enlightenment ideals of, like, historical research, of scholarship? Do you take that and apply it to the biblical text?

Or is the biblical text somehow above the insights of scholarship and science? And so, of course, fundamentalists said you, yes, Scripture is the Word of God. And it is above all that.

And modernists were like, eh, no, Scripture doesn't get excused from any of this. And so there was this huge debate in the first half of the 20th century and in the United States, the modernists really won that debate.

And so mainline Protestants in the United States were called mainline or mainstream because that's the majority of Christians. The majority of Christians were like, yeah, we should use our brains when we're thinking about faith.

undamentalist takeover in the: 1970

And I think what we see now with the rise of fundamentalism is just a different way of approaching life, faith and the biblical in text, with the biblical text. So what we get in the Bible isn't the inerrant Word of God.

Rather it's a collection of people's experiences of the divine mysteries of the universe that we often call God.

And I think that's an important difference because if you approach the biblical text as if it is directly handed down from God, then you can do things like cherry pick verses and make them mean whatever you want. Because if it's from God, then you can say, hey, this one thing, this is from God and this is how I'm going to live my life.

And you don't have to look at it within its context. If, however, you're taking an intellectually honest approach to the biblical text, then that means that it can't do that.

You can't just take one verse and look at it out of its socio historical context. You can't take just one verse and look at it outside of its literary context. You have to contextualize that.

And so I think one of the reasons that we see such difference of opinion about many issues, both theological and social, is because we have a fundamentally different approach to religion. A fundamentally a different approach to our sacred scripture.

Liam Heffernan: 00:08:37

We've taken a very kind of religious approach so far to this discussion that abortion is not just a religious issue. And we'll come back on to matters around religion in a moment.

Because on that note, Becky, I think we need to look at this from a gender perspective, of course. So you know, when we think about gender equality here, you got to wonder if reproductive rights would ever be so contentious if it was about men.

Rebecca Fraser: 00:09:12

f it was about men. Right. So: 2018

He's being nominated for his now current position on the U.S. supreme Court. And she asked him about reproductive rights, reproductive justice.

And he said, and she says, she asks him, can you give any examples, can you think of any examples of laws that give government the power to make decisions about the male body? And Brett Kavanaugh could not answer because there aren't any. Right. And it really is at a very basic level about the patriarchy.

And I don't want to sort of include every. Men. Every man, sorry, in, you know, sort of this kind of summation of, you know, sort of what I'm saying.

But the patriarchal codes of the United States, founded by men for men. It was about containing women's power, those, those kinds of. And that, I mean, sort of reproductive rights, particularly abortion.

Women have been practicing abortion for centuries. Right.

This didn't just happen: 1920

was legal or not. And by the: 1850

But very enterprising women are setting up private clinics to, you know, sort of allow women to have a termination because they. They don't want to be pregnant for whatever reason.

One of the women that I looked at in my most recent book, Edmonia Highgate, she dies from a botched abortion. So she's, she has a relationship.

She's an African American woman, real sort of intellectual, and she, she has a relationship with a white poet called John Vosberg. And they get pregnant and she refuses to marry her. She can't, you know, have the child. It's a biracial child.

So her only choice is to, you know, sort of go for an abortion. But it's illegal, right. So she travels to New York under a false identity and she dies on the surgeon's table. Right. Because of the procedure.

And so the idea that through containing women's rights to abortion will sort of mean that they don't have them, it's just not true.

You really, we really need to, you know, sort of think about the ways in which women's networks have developed over, you know, centuries to help women get abortion contraception in various ways, you know, sort of.

And various laws were passed in the 19th century that forbade anything being sent through the post, the Comstock Laws, which meant that you couldn't send, you know, sort of abortive medicines through the post and, you know, sort of. And then in the 19 into the 20th century, you've got things like the Jane Collective before Roe versus Wade.

So I think while patriarchal structures have quite, for a long time tried to prevent women from, you know, sort of undergoing such procedures, women have resisted this in various ways, sometimes fatally, actually, because it's not safe, because it's unregulated. I think if it was about men and their reproductive health and reproductive rights, I think it would just blow up, wouldn't it?

Liam Heffernan: 00:13:35

Yeah, I agree. And I think it's. It's sad that, you know, you're even, you know, talking about it in the sense that in order for positive regulation to.

To happen, that women need to galvanize and force that change. Now, why, why is it that men, you know, be it boyfriends or husbands or doctors or politicians, seem to feel like they have a right to.

To tell women what to do with their bodies?

Rebecca Fraser: 00:14:02

I don't think it's all men, right.

Liam Heffernan: 00:14:04

Not all men. I exclude myself from that at least.

Rebecca Fraser: 00:14:07

And I think, you know, sort of we have very, very, you know, sort of progressive men. I mean, Obama, for example, you know, sort of really, you know, sort of pushed an agenda of pro choice.

But I think it comes back to whether the administration is very kind of fundamentalist in relation to that kind of new right ideology, you know, sort of fundamentalist Christianity who they're appealing to. Right. As well. And there seems to be, you know, sort of this divide between, you know, the Democrats who are probably known as.

As more pro choice, and then the Republicans, who are. Who are definitely more known as pro life. But there are, you know, caveats to that. Right.

Because many Democrats for various reason, might be pro life. And the same with Republican, Republican women.

They might have a kind of a tendency or, you know, a story of their own that has suggested that the, the path they've. They've traveled has led them towards, you know, sort of a pro. A pro choice agenda and being supportive. Abortion and reproductive rights.

Yeah, because we're not just talking about abortion. I know we are in this podcast, but, you know, sort of it's a bigger, you know, thing than that. And, you know, reproductive rights and justice as.

Liam Heffernan: 00:15:31

Yeah, yeah, and I think you've. You raised a good point there about that intersection between politics and Religion. And Caleb, I'd like to come back to you here, because I do.

I wonder if abortion has always been something that's appealed to religious voters or if politics has made it a religious issue.

Caleb Lines: 00:15:52

e a religious issue until the: 1970

In fact, beginning in: 1971

And in the: 1970

o abortion. And that was from: 1981

Board of education became law and made it illegal to racially segregate schools, white folks in the south in particular, began to send their children to private Christian schools called segregation academies. These were religious organizations, so 501c3 non profits. And eventually it was ruled unconstitutional during the Nixon administration.

And these schools, nonprofit statuses, were all of a sudden in jeopardy.

So there was this political strategist, a guy named Paul Weyrich, and he was in favor of using segregation to get out the white conservative southern evangelical voters. And it was very effective. So when segregation could no longer be used as that issue to galvanize that base, he started looking for other issues.

And he tried several. But in: 1978

And what he did was identify four different midterm elections with anti reproductive health Republican candidates.

And he sent people out to distribute pamphlets in church parking lots in those very close races with Democratic incumbents and anti choice Republicans. And he found that the strategy work and that in all four of those races, it was the Republicans that won.

rtion. Throughout most of the: 1970

They didn't talk about it at all. It wasn't until Weyrich discovered that this was a useful issue to get people to, to vote for Republicans that it became a religious issue.

And Paul Weyrich helped Jerry Falwell to found the Moral Majority. In fact, Paul Weyrich coined the term Moral Majority. So, no, it was not a religious issue, it was a political issue.

And in fact, it was a political strategist who made it a religious issue at all.

Liam Heffernan: 00:19:21

I mean, Becky, what Caleb said that you're obviously hot on 19th century, and you've taught me about 19th century America and we talk about this sort of crossover between racism, religion and politics. It's nothing new, is it?

Rebecca Fraser: 00:19:43

No. And I think in the context of abortion and reproductive rights and reproductive justice is it's women of colour, right?

But the Dobbs case that saw abortion sort of rights being handed back to, you know, sort of separate states, that meant that several states, particularly in the south, made abortion illegal. They have really restrictive abortion laws, thanks to Dobbs. And so the majority of, of poor women in these states are women of colour.

They do not have the means to travel, to travel to somewhere whereby it's legal. Right.

And there was talk, and I don't think it's coming yet, but there was talk of making that illegal, whereby, you know, sort of if you were a woman living in Texas and you traveled to New York for an abortion that actually, you know, sort of that would be made illegal. I don't think that's come in yet. But so it is women of color who in terms of socioeconomic status, fall in that kind of poverty line distinction.

However, it's also poor women, right? So, and it's not just, you know, sort of women of color. It's really, really poor white women.

It's poor women who, you know, sort of unskilled labour laborers. It just really, it's a bigger issue than just that idea of, you know, sort of integrating kind of racism and religion and politics.

But I was interested in what Caleb was saying and thinking about this idea of, you know, sort of when the Jerry Farwell's of this, you know, really turn their attention to abortion. And there's a great feminist writer called Katha Pollitt and she says, you know, sort of, she argues, she's written a great book called Pro.

This was in the days before Dobbs.

But she says at some point in the, in the book, these kind of conservative religious leaders are, you know, sort of really concerned with the, the dispatch and hatch of these, of these children, of these babies, but nobody cares about the afterlife of these kids once they're, you know, sort of born.

I know Jerry Farwell set up various kind of orphanages, for want of a better word, to, you know, sort of care for these unwanted inverted commas babies. But, you know, sort of it does come back to, you know, sort of economics.

It does come back to, you know, sort of who is going to support these children. In the colonial era, this was definitely an issue. A white indentured female servant gets impregnated by her master. She has an illegitimate child.

Who's going to care for that? Who's going to pay for that child? Right. Growing up.

And so it is about economics and it is about, you know, race and racism, but it is too complex to, you know, sort of just separate out these, this kind of very, very complex threads that, you know, sort of talk to each other and in dialogue with each other.

And I've gone off on tangent, but I think it's such a complex issue that you can't just, you know, say, well, you know, sort of it's linked to racism and religion. And, you know, that's, that's, that's the way it's playing.

Liam Heffernan: 00:23:20

I think you touched on something there about, you know, this idea that I think sometimes the arguments for pro lifers is, can often neglect many questions about the circumstances around, you know, the women who are looking for an abortion and perhaps the quality of life that those children would be born into. There's a lot of issues there that I think perhaps maybe get a bit neglected by people who are anti abortion.

But Caleb, kind of on that note, and pardon my complete ignorance in this question, but it does always strike me that people who are the most pious, who shout the loudest about God's forgiveness and being so loyal to the Bible, are often the ones who are most hostile about abortion and are then also potentially the most, or can be the most judgmental when those children who are forced to be born are struggling and not living a particularly pious life themselves.

Caleb Lines: 00:24:23

You know, Liam, to your point in the Becky's, There's a political cartoon, perhaps you've seen it, and it's raining outside. And there's this, this mother with her children standing out in the rain. She's trying to care for them. You know, it's.

It's clear that they lack the economic needs they need means they need to survive. And then there's a woman on the other side who's pregnant. And there are these clearly very conservative lawmakers standing there.

They've got on these suits and Red ties. So, you know, they're Republicans, old white men, and they've got an umbrella holding it over the woman's stomach. Have you seen that?

I mean, it's that kind of thing, right? So why is it that often religious people are the most judgmental? And why is it that conservative Christians are the most.

The most adamant that these fetuses need to be born, and then there's a lack of compassion? Well, I think largely it's because people have been enculturated and honestly lack basic biblical literacy.

And that starts at the top with people who are in the pulpit.

So every single pastor who has graduated with a Master of Divinity degree, which is the basic degree that people typically need to be a clergy person, everyone who has a Master of Divinity degree from an ATS accredited school, so association of Theological Schools, that's the accreditation body, anyone who has an M. Div. From an ATS Accredited school learns the historical critical method of biblical interpretation.

So that means that every pastor who is in pulpits in the United States who has had these basic. These basic criteria met for ordination, they know that the Bible contradicts itself. They know that the Bible was never meant to be taken literally.

They know that it was written by different people. But they don't tell their congregations that. Sometimes it's because they're afraid of getting fired.

They think maybe that the congregation's not ready to hear that. Sometimes it's because they get into the culture of the church and they forget academics.

Sometimes it's because they never really believed it to begin with.

But I think one of the gravest sins that I can think of is that these people that you send away to learn about the biblical text so that you can then come back and use that education to teach people that people don't share that. And so I think that that's very unfortunate, and it has led to a lot of terrible theology being allowed to continue.

So most of what I say on social media that comes off as something that is really radical is really just stuff anybody can learn in an Intro to New Testament class.

It just sounds radical because most people in religious authority don't have the guts to say it or they don't want to say it because it hurts their own places of privilege and power. So this means that understanding in the ancient world of what it meant to be alive was different than how we understand it today.

In the ancient world, they actually defined life as beginning later than we typically think about it today, not earlier. So a fetus was treated as property, not as life in the Bible.

And we can see that in Exodus 21 where there's an accidental abortion caused by a fight and that is treated as a property loss by the Bible.

The only time that abortion is mentioned in the Bible is in Numbers five when we find instructions on how to perform one after it has been ordered by God. So in Jewish law, a child didn't have in afresh a soul until it could take its first breath.

Additionally, since childbirth was so precarious in the ancient world, it meant that a child wasn't considered to be fully alive actually until its naming ceremony a few days after its birth, because it was very likely that that child was going to die during childbirth or in the few days after it had been born. So in the Gospel of Luke we see Jesus family taking him to the temple for a naming ceremony. That's what that's about.

So it's because of ignorance, it's because of poor scholarship, it's because of false religiosity that people hold so fast to this anti reproductive health movement so vehemently. But those same issues of ignorance and poor scholarship and false religiosity are also the same things that we see the prophets and Jesus condemn.

So this isn't new. This same kind of abuse of religion is a story as old as time.

But it means that if you have done the work and you don't cherry pick verses and take them out of context, but instead you look at the whole picture and you look at the understanding of life in the ancient world, it's clear that our understanding of life has actually grown more compassionate in the 21st century than it was in the ancient world.

Liam Heffernan: 00:29:55

It sounds a bit from, from what you said, like, you know, conservative Christians mainly are, are being exploited and they're not being taught the Bible in the perhaps the way it should be taught.

And actually this sort of potent mix of, you know, politics and how that's now kind of weaponized, you know, issues like abortion and the impressionability, I guess, of certain conservative Christians and pockets of Christianity that make that kind of make this so hostile, I guess.

And I just wonder if religion as a whole and Christianity is getting a really bad rep because of this exploitation that's happening and driven a lot, it seems, by the intervention of politicians just trying to win votes.

Caleb Lines: 00:30:46

Yeah, I think it does, but I think it's a deserved bad rap in many cases and it has had consequences for Christianity.

So we find out that the two most common reasons given for people leaving the church, according to the Pew Religious Landscape study, is perceived stances on LGBT issues primarily that the church hates queer people and doesn't want them there, and perceives stances on climate change primarily that the church does not care about the earth.

And honestly, religion that promotes the isms and phobias and all of that stuff, that kind of religion needs to die because, yes, it is promoting something that is anti biblical, that is anti Jesus. And so that kind of thing needs to get. We need to get rid of that.

And certainly political folks who are in it for their own game gain have used religion just like they've used any other tools that they can think of to gain their own prominence and power.

So I think the interesting thing, though, is, at least in the United States, these same surveys that talk about why it is that people are leaving organized religion also show that people don't stop searching for spiritual truth after they leave churches. Most consider themselves open to spirituality. They've just found organized religion to be a poor mediator of God's divine presence.

And who can blame them? Because they're right. And I think that what people mostly want is authenticity in their lives.

And I think that that's true whether you're talking about religion or whether you're talking about politics or whether you're talk about it your friend. You want people to be authentic with you. You want people to do what they say they're going to do.

And the church has had a big authenticity problem because the church has talked a lot about compassion and care and has done a really bad job of practicing that. So certainly that type of religion deserves to die.

I think one thing that we are likely to see, though, in this, this Trump administration is less of a focus on even traditional values that most Christians have been able to at least give lip service to, like peace and compassion and kindness. That doesn't really seem to be something that Maga Trump supporters are really interested in even giving lip service to anymore.

So I think we're going to continue to see see a divide within Christian circles between Christians who are interested in following the authentic teachings of Jesus and Christians who are just interested in white supremacy and in power accumulation and economic gain.

Liam Heffernan: 00:33:52

You mentioned Trump, and I guess here I wonder if we're kind of get into the crux of the issue here because is there a bit of a public relations issue with, with Christianity in that we're almost at this point in America where if you're a conservative Christian and you're not anti abortion and you're not anti LGBTQ and you're not a Trump voter, then you're a bad conservative Christian.

Caleb Lines: 00:34:22

Yes.

And I mean, I think there's a narrative, and this is a narrative that the religious right has controlled, not only that you're bad conservative Christian, but that you are a bad Christian, that what it means to be Christian is that you are pro abortion. What it means to be Christian is that you are anti lgbt. What it means to be a Christian is that you deny science.

And these are not things, even within the United States, that have been historically associated with Christianity. And so I think anytime that you see Christianity primarily associated with social issues, you got to wonder what's behind that, what is driving that.

And so that's why I see my biggest role is to kind of counter those claims, because those claims are not authentic to the teachings of Jesus. These claims are not authentic to the biblical text.

As I said, in terms of reproductive health, we see the Bible actually as a pretty pro biblical health kind or pro reproductive health kind of text.

I mean, one of the things that I preached about as we were reading the Christmas stories this year is that when Mary is approached by the angel about giving birth to Jesus. And of course, none of these stories are historical, right? They're all metaphorical stories. They're all talking about other things.

But when Mary's approached in the biblical text by an angel asking about Jesus, the angel gives Mary the choice of whether or not she wants to carry the child or not, and she gets to choose, which means that in the biblical text, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is given more choice than a lot of people in the United States today are. And so, yeah, Christianity has a huge image problem.

And one of the reasons for that is because conservative Christians have elected someone who's not even a Christian, Donald Trump, to represent us.

I mean, I think it says a lot when during Trump's first presidential campaign, he claimed to be a Presbyterian, PC usa, the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America. And so that's a mainline Protestant denomination. And so whenever he made that claim, the stated clerk of the Presbyterian Church.

So in that tradition, that's the highest elected office, basically the highest minister of the church.

The stated clerk of the Presbyterian Church said not only is Donald Trump not a Presbyterian, by any way that we can determine, we can't see any evidence that he's even a Christian. And so whenever we've got evangelical voters turning out for Trump, we've seen that there's been kind of a paradigm shift in values.

And honestly, we can see that shift going all the way back to Reagan, because we had Jimmy Carter, who was a Southern evangelical, right? I mean, this guy, he was a Christian, he was a Baptist, he was a member of the Southern Baptist Convention.

But you know, the Southern Baptist Convention I was talking about earlier, the one that was pro reproductive health and all this, that we saw this movement away from a part of the tribe to someone who was clearly anti Christian values, even though Ronald Reagan actually was born in my tradition, the Christian church Disciples of Christ, that Ronald Reagan was not interested in traditional Christian values, that he had to be coached on how to even speak Christian.

So I think, yes, there's an image problem, and I think, yes, it's one that the religious right has created, but I think that they did it intentionally to get people to vote against their own self interests.

Rebecca Fraser: 00:38:28

It's so interesting, Caleb, that you mentioned sort of Mary was given the choice, right, whether to have Jesus or not.

And I was reminded of this really famous quote by Hillary Clinton and she says, I know so many pro choice people, I do not know anyone that's pro abortion. Right? And it's, that's the really important distinction. It's about choice.

It's not about, you know, sort of loving the fact that, you know, I'm going to kill this, you know, fetus. It's about, you know, sort of I'm too poor to have another child. And many of the women that undergo the procedure already have children. Right?

It's not they're a high flyer and, you know, sort of, and a child would interrupt their career. It's actually they just can't afford another child.

And so, and, and I think, or alternatively the second trimester has had abnormalities and there's a real kind of, you know, sort of risk of the fetus dying soon after birth. Those are the choices, right. These women have to make.

And I think, you know, so being pro choice is not, it's very distinct from being pro abortion, I think, you know, so Caleb makes a really, really good point about those kinds of ways in which fundamentalist Christianity has, you know, really hijacked the narratives.

Caleb Lines: 00:40:04

That's a great point, Becky, because that, that's the way it often gets framed. And that's one of the reasons why I've specifically not said pro life and pro choice.

And because the conservative wing here in the United States often will say pro abortion and nobody is pro abortion, right? Everybody thinks we ought to be limiting the number of abortions.

And yes, sometimes it's economics, sometimes it's because of health related concerns. There are any number of concerns why a person who is pregnant might choose to terminate that pregnancy.

But we all think that we ought to limit the number of abortions.

It's just that statistics show, research shows that the best way to limit the number of abortions is to provide people with education, with the support they need in terms of health care, to make sure that people have access to contraception and all of that kinds of stuff.

And so a lot of the policy that the right ends up promoting in the United States is stuff that actually, if you really want to limit the number of abortions, does exactly the opposite of that.

Liam Heffernan: 00:41:19

And actually, you know, talking about, you know, all of that, it's, it's, it's crazy, isn't it, that the same people that tend to campaign for no sex education in schools are also the same people who are on the side of pro life.

So, you know, you see these areas where the information isn't being provided, the support isn't being given, there's obviously a rise in the number of teen and other unwanted pregnancies, but then they're not being allowed to do anything about and they're not being given the choice and the support that they need. It just is. It seems so counterintuitive.

Rebecca Fraser: 00:41:55

So when I last checked, the US had the highest rate of teen pregnancies in the Western world. Right. And so why is this? Right, so it's because school kids are not being taught about sexual education at schools from a very early age.

They're not being provided with access to contraception. They're not being provided with, you know, sort of condoms and because men can do that too. Right.

But yeah, know, sort of condoms and the contraceptive pill and which, you know, so comes with its, its own disadvantages. There are ways and means to decrease that level of, of teen pregnancies through education. Right?

But because of this mantra from the kind of fundamentalist, right. That abstinence is, you know, sort of the best policy. Right. So, you know, sort of no sex before marriage.

Well, of course, these, I mean, sort of, these are wild, hormonal, you know, teenagers, right? So give them the. Give them the support that they need to make wise decisions, but that's not being done. And it all starts with, with that.

And that's why you end up in this kind of loop really, whereby you know, sort of highest teen pregnancy rate, those people who are pregnant are then, you know, sort of seeking abortions and then, you know, sort of. And it, yeah, it's. It's a crazy situation.

Caleb Lines: 00:43:26

I think it's very sad. And, you know, Becky, I can attest to that. So I live in Southern California now, right? Very blue. But I grew up in rural Missouri in middle America.

And it was a place that we kind of called the buckle of the Bible Belt. And so my sex education class in high school was taught by two conservatives ministers. This was a public school, right.

So separation of church and state and all that. We had two conservative ministers come in and teach this class. And there were two main messages.

One, sex, don't have it, at least not until you're married. And two, if you do have sex, you're going to get an std and it is going to ruin your life.

And most of that class was spent looking at, at pictures of what today we would call sexually transmitted infections. Right. But back then they called IT diseases STDs. We would sit there and look at that, trying to scare the teens out of having sex.

So, yeah, no sexual education at all is the norm in a lot of, a lot of especially deep red places in the United States.

Liam Heffernan: 00:44:43

Bringing this back to the question of why abortion is so controversial in America. From everything that you've both talked about on this episode, to me, it comes back to this lack of healthy discourse in America around this issue.

And, Becky, I wonder where you think America is in that respect when you consider the last few years and the reaction to the, you know, repealing Roe v. Wade and the last election cycle and just everything Trump and Maga that's kind of dominated the political sphere. You know, what's the solution here?

Rebecca Fraser: 00:45:18

Yeah, well, I can't promise a solution, but remember, on the campaign, Trump at some point said, I'm going to protect women whether they like it or not. He was then talking, I think, if I remember rightly, about protecting them from, you know, sort of Haitian immigrants who are eating their animals.

men harkens back to a kind of: 1950

vement with, which is Project: 2025

And there are some sort of arguments that actually he could enact things like the Comstock Law again, which actually it's never been off the table. It's never been off the statute books at all. It's just like sort of lingered in the background, but nobody really pays any attention.

But so then it would be illegal to send the morning after pill through the mail. Right.

And I certainly know with the UK at least, there have been sort of creeping, you know, sort of pro life agendas coming in to the uk, particularly during COVID actually when, you know, sort of people who were pregnant. There were two cases in particular in I think in Ireland.

One of them was one woman was imprisoned because she had a late term abortion, but it was through the medication. But we don't know what is going to happen.

I think states that are still supportive of and have liberal laws around reproductive health and abortion will step up, as they always do, will support. I mean, there are again, there are networks of women and men supporting, you know, sort of those who need abortions.

Getting from, you know, sort of a state that has really restrictive laws to a state that doesn't. But the next few years will be very, very interesting around reproductive justice.

Not just abortion, I think, you know, sort of contraception comes into this, the rights to have a child and support that child. The states has the worst parental care package I have ever known in terms of, you know, sort of maternity and paternity leave.

And so, and I think Ivanka campaigned for that in the previous Trump administration. But that's, that's all gone quiet. I'm just, you know, sort of watching with a real kind of, you know, sort of concern and of what's, what's.

Liam Heffernan: 00:49:02

Going to come, Caleb, to sort of bring this to a close. I'm going to put you on the spot, you know, as a, as an American, as a Christian in California, kind of covering all the bases here.

What, what does good regulation look like? And is there a way to make everyone happy?

Caleb Lines: 00:49:23

Is there a way to make everyone happy? Probably not. But I think what does good legislation look like? Well, I think it looks like, I think ultimately we should not be legislating belief.

Right. I think that's one start is that what we've seen is an effort to really galvanize a base around legislating belief and creating a theocracy.

And that's dangerous and it is contrary to the values that we espouse as a nation. Right. So I think that not legislating belief is important.

I think we all let our values inform the way that we vote, the policies that we think ought to be in place. But it's different to let our values guide the way we live.

Our lives than it is to say, hey, everyone has to believe and behave the same way that I do because I'm in power and I'm in charge and that's what we're going to do. So I think it is then looking to science and to our experts to say what is the best policy on this.

And so we've kind of agreed on viability as a point at which there is a change in the pregnancy. And that is somewhat, you know, debated there, There is wiggle room in that. That's not the perfect marker, but it's a pretty good marker.

If the fetus could survive with, without the, the mother, if it could be viable outside the womb, then then that's a pretty good marker of the time that that abortion should stop.

And so I, I think the way that we have traditionally laid this out is a pretty decent way to lay out legislation and I think we should be working towards going back to that.

And in terms of religious conversation, I think folks like me have a lot of work to do to say, hey, look, we need to dismantle the bad theology that you have been fed because it really was invented and fed to you. It was not something that was authentic to any biblical teachings. So I think those are places to start.

Liam Heffernan: 00:51:47

Yeah. Wise words to end this episode. And Caleb, thank you for joining us for this.

It was incredibly insightful and also to you, Becky, thank you for inviting me.

Yeah, it's been a pleasure to talk about this and to anyone listening, if you enjoyed this discussion and you do want to find out more, we're going to put links to everything we've mentioned in the show notes, so do go check those out if anyone wants to connect with either of you directly. Where can they do that? Caleb?

Caleb Lines: 00:52:19

Well, you can find me across social media platforms, especially on TikTok and Instagram at Rev Doc.

Caleb Jleinz or you can find me@calebjleinz.com also check out progressivechristianity.org or University Christian Church in San Diego on social media. And if you just love my thoughts on stuff, you can check out my new 52 week devotional.

It's called Awaken the 52 Week Progressive Christian Devotional.

Liam Heffernan: 00:52:44

Excellent. And Becky.

Rebecca Fraser: 00:52:47

Oh, I'm not as dynamic as Caleb. I've just got a boring email address.

So if you want to contact me, you can contact me at Becky Fraserea ac.uk and I be delighted to carry on the conversation.

Liam Heffernan: 00:53:06

Awesome. Thank you. And you can no longer find me on X, but you can find me on BlueSky and on LinkedIn. Just search for my name if you want to connect.

And if you do enjoy this podcast, do leave us a rating and a review wherever you're listening to this and give us a follow as well so that all future episodes appear in the feed.

Additionally, you can follow the links in the show notes to support the show from as little as as $1 or pound or whatever currency you deal in and that will make us all very happy. Thank you so much for listening and goodbye.